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Hi folks,
Today I received this JNat:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...ps130a876a.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...ps2eba258d.jpg
The info I got from the seller ist that it's Nakayama, bought in Japan and probably more than 70 years old.
I'd like to learn more about the stone, esp. what it says on the stamp. Can anybody help me out?
Thanks and best regards
Jrg
330 mate stone with a lot of holes in it, hope it works for you.
The Nakayama stock is owned by Hatanaka which is not the same guy, the mine was sealed in the 60's and is not mined anymore.
You won't know what really matters with regard to this stone until you lap it a bit more and learn its capabilities.
Jolly74; have you used Jnats before?
After a good lapping i'd love to see a top down picture! Looks like it's a nice color at least.
I've never bought from 330 mate but I have tried stones that come from him and they were ok,
I've also heard the horror stories and since his prices aren't super low I'm not going there.
I find som Jnats here and there, been very lucky this far :)
JNS stones look really nice but that price range is out of my league.
I look forward to hear about how this stone is...
I found JSN to be 'middle of the road' as far as prices go and they constantly have sales and deals going on.
You're right!
I just checked JNS out right now and the prices where ok, I think the last time i checked it he only had really large stones for sale.
Even if they last for generations, it's me paying for them, hehe!
If I'm not mistaken Maksim bought stones from 330 mate too not so many years ago.
We all have to start somewhere! ;)
Wow - thanks for all the feedback :D. I've typed my message before going to bed and now the thread is already on the second page:D :dropjaw:...
Thanks for this info. I got the stone from a colleague in a German forum at a fair price and I didn't know where it originated from originally. The holes are mainly on one side (the last inch or so, right hand side on the picture), the rest is flat and usable. I've run a quick test on it with pictured razor: 5 and 1 m lapping film followed by the Nakayama with water only and an extra layer of tape. HHT off the stone and stropping on leather is good. Let's see how the shave will be :).Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
I've got one Oozuku, which is my preferred finishing stone, but I also have two old Thuringians, several coticules and barber hones as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Cheers
Jrg
I know you Germans have a shaving forum, was reading there before but my German is not really good enough to write it.
By the way, have you tried the Otaniyama?
We need more of you germans posting stuff in the classifieds here! My family came here from Germany in the 2nd world war and I've only been to Koln for 2 days. My parents are doing one of these 'viking river cruises' and they pass right by solingen! I've warned them that if they don't come back with something vintage and shaving related that I'll be pissed off!
There have to be more thuri's in germany than anywhere else so let's see some nice big vintage stones alright? :)
In fact we have two major ones but of course there's a lot of cross-over between both sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
What do you mean by "Otaniyama" - the JNat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
OT: So, how's your German then :D? I've been to Solingen many times but you don't find so much vintage stuff there. DOVO doesn't see visitors but I've been to Revisor and Wacker - but you need to announce your visit in advance and as politely - they're small opreations and don't have a shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie967
With regard to thuris, I have one vintage one - I got it from the grandson of a barber. It's a very nice stone (but no label ;)...). Some guys have been lucky with finding Eschers and such on fleamarket, but not me. They also sought after here and normally very expensive too. But I did find two nice coticules that :D. OT off...
Today I've spent 1 hour lapping the stone and now its completely flat and without holes :D :D :D. I'll play around with it over the weekend and load up more pictures.
Cheers
Jrg
new pics of the freshly lapped hone?????
Yes, Otaniyama like jnat;
japan-messer-shop -
When I searched for more info about it I found myself on some German shaving forum, it seemed like a nice forum but the German I learned in school didn't even mention words like "Schleifstein", I know I can get by in Germany getting a beer and some whisky... and a nice girl! ;)
Too late now in good ol' Germany - I'll do it over the weekend :D...Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie967
So you've already got the essentials covered ;)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Buying Natural stones is a crap shoot IMO. Labeled Escher is the exception to that rule. It's the only consistent natural I'm aware of, perhaps the Zulu. There are more types of Japanese natural stones than any other. Anyone that's bought lots of Jnats has probably come across a dud. That's why most vendors take them back. I got two stones in a fire sale from a former member, They were both 330mate stones, and they were fine. I have no complaints. It really depends on the stone, a bit of luck, and your ability to spot a good one.
But then, how do you know you get an original Escher?
We're stuck either way, you have to trust someone that it's a good Jnat or an original Escher.
Well, You buy an original labeled Escher. I edited my post.
I assume Escher and Co. labeled those Thuringians because of their quality.
Most Thuringians are consistent as well, but an Escher with a label, there's no doubt of it's quality.
In my experience coticules are also consistent too, if you define "consistent" as "can be used to get a razor shave-ready". I've used around 8 different ones and, even though you needed to find out how to best use them, they all delivered shave-ready edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
But back to my JNat. Here are two pictures of the freshly lapped stone:
dry:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...ps7c72057b.jpg
wet:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...psb6611546.jpg
I've used it today with slurry (fine diamondplate) and it delivered a nice edge. Not mirror-polished but rather a very finely matted finish, quite similar to my Oozuku. Good HHT after leather-stropping as well.
Cheers
Jrg
P.S. I'm still interested in what the kanji on the stamp means - does anyone know?
Nice looking stone brother! Good job lapping her too!
What I find interesting about the whole 330mate/Nakaoka-san thing is that with all the bad press and commentary he has a 99.2 positive feedback rating in 7913 transactions. Every seller has issues, everyone of them, the language barrier together with his lack of patience dealing with the uninitiated have given him a bad reputation IMO. If you want Iyoto, he is the only person you can get it from. I have no affiliation with 330mate and have paid for any and all stones I've purchased from him. The cool thing is that there are others options available, bashing for the sake of bashing helps no one.
Coticules have too many variations for me to consider them consistent by my definition. I understand what you mean when you say they can get a blade shave ready. I've come across a few bad ones. I was a vendor for Ardennes and handled hundreds of them. Some are easier to use than others, some are better cutters, some are better finishers. It usually takes someone a while to figure out their Coticule. About 5 years ago, they were sold only as Kosher, Selected and Standard.
Then, just a few years ago, they were sold by vein names with the quarry charging a premium for certain veins. The more popular ones, like La petite blance were considered better quality, and you paid for that. This topic has been brought up many times on the forum. Dressante, La petite blance, La Grise, etc....There are even variances within the same vein as well.
To steal a line from a movie, Coticules are like a box of Chocolates, you never know what your gonna get. (until you use it)
Bayamontate;
I agree with you!
I have friends who got stones from 330mate without any hassle, I've tried some of his stones and they were ok.
A friend of mine got some Jnats from another source and he thought they were crap until I showed him how to use them, now he loves them.
It seems like a lot of people buy stones way out of their comfort zone in honing.
Luckily some of them get sold on for a nice price! ;)
I guess it's a cheap shot hitting on 330mate, he's not around to defend himself.
Complaining on some of the other stone sellers will on some forums get you banned!
I'm not really sure about SRP but I like to believe this is a better place. :)
Good point. We don't tolerate vendor bashing on this site. It's not fair to the vendor. As I said in my earlier post, I got two stones from a member here, that bought them off 330mate, and they were fine. No problems. So....YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayamontate
It's like anything else, educate yourself, know what your getting, use paypal, and understand the vendors return policy. You'd be surprised how many stones are returned that are actually good. It's just the person using it doesn't know how, or just isn't satisfied.
I think Jnats are the most counterfited stones out there (especially the Kanji), so you do need to be careful.
Alex recently posted in his blog at the Japan Blade that the Ozuku mine was closed in 1920 ...strange there are many Ozuku stones around now with new kanji.
I am not hinting towards anything but it was interesting to read.
If that was logical then we'd question the authenticity of any number of razors coming from manufacturers that are no longer in production. Think about how many Wade and butchers breaching the 1 inch mark that are seemingly always available and new ones populating the market every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disburden
We've all heard stories, and that's all they are, of how and where people/vendors find their product.
You'd really be surprised at what goes on. Like I said earlier, Jnats are the most counterfitted stones.
Buyer Beware.....
Tell us then....Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
He just did, most counterfeited stone is Nakayama, because they sell for the most money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Almost any stone you see sold in Japan online is claimed Nakayama, no stamps no nothing.
Truth about Ozuko and Shobudani is they are more available, not hyped as Nakayama, so the prices are much lower.
They are cheaper because the hype machine has not cough up with them. Ozuko especially produces harder stones that are very good for razor. Nakayama produces softer stones that are more for tools and knives, rarely you will find real hard Nakayama, I mean as hard as some Ozuko.
Currently the trend is Nakayama prices are going up a lot, kiita especially, who knows why but it is a fact. From what I hear a good size and quality nakayama kiita is not less than $5k now in Japan, good that the Japanese do not value Asagi so much. Other mines that have big price increase are Okudo and Ohira, all this comes from huge demand by carpenters, and other craftsmen that sharpen tools on Jnats.
I knew there were false stamps out there, I just thought maybe he knew something specific about the Jnat trade and had some examples of "false" Jnats.
As far as Nakayama if you really think about it, any stone not having any stamp listed in the link below is technically false.
}J^{R̐@HX(PROSHOPHOKU TO)
Provenance is key.
Except for the vintage ones had different stamps, and different wholeseleers have different stamps too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayamontate
It's a jungle out there for sure!
The vintage market has completely different considerations, provenance is not only key in that circumstance, it's paramount.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
But in your previous post you said that any stone that does not have the stamps from your link, is not authentic or am I missing the meaning? Vintage Nakayamas are stamped with different stamps, before the raw stone stock was bought by Hatanaka, it was property of Kato which used different stamps, that for sure does not make them less Nakayama than the current stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayamontate
That's not what I said but have no interest in jousting, plus I have 7 razors I need to get out by Monday. Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Bayamonte
Your link is a useful one, and it does cover the current stamps used by Hatanaka company. Those are stamps that are currently copyrighted for the exclusive use of the owner Hatanaka-san and his company. Kato-san had his own stamps which he sold to Hatanaka and there are dozens of other copyrighted stamps associated to the Nakayama mine and the Hatanaka company that you have not seen or are not being used.
Remember that Kato owned the mineral rights to the site of the Nakayama mine, he did not actually own the land, just the mineral rights which he leased on a yearly basis from the owner who was most likely one of the local Buddhist sects who owned and still does own most if not all of the land around Mt.Atago. Ohira does not own his land, just the mineral rights and he told me that the Buddhist Chruch ownes his land and that he does not have a written lease, just an understanding that goes back 5 or 6 generations. None of the mines owned the actual land, it was all leased and in most cases with a gentleman’s agreement like what we call a handshake.
The ink stamps are different, these rights are owned and maintained just like a business name. This is not to say that someone cannot infringe on the name or change the stamps just enough to make then different enough to get their own copyright. In the old days all of the mines and wholesalers cooperated together for the betterment of the whole.
Kato-san was pretty much the only miner who marked his own stones, and this was only a small selection of stone and it was not Hype but instead Promotion, the other miners just sold their stone with no stamps. This changed in the 1950s and 60s but by that time 90% of the mines were closed so what we see now are mostly wholesalers stamps.
Kato-san was a miner, and Hatanaka-san was a wholesaler in Kyoto who bought stones from Kato. At some point they formed a partnership, I am not sure about the date but it should have been after WW2, and when Kato gave up the mineral rights he sold everything lock, stock & barrel including the copyrighted stamps to Hatanaka.
Kato sold stones to lots of wholesalers every day of the week for 50 years, so there are lots and lots of Nakayama stones owned by other companies, and they can sell them as Nakayama mined stones if they want to, it is not against the law to claim them as such, it is just that they cannot stamp them the same as Hatanaka and Kato did or with other copyrighted images. I can take you into almost any stone store in Kyoto or Tokyo and pick out unmarked Nakayama stones off the shelf and the store owners sometimes themselves do not even know it, and those stones will be stamped with some generic wholesales stamp reading Yamashiro or Naurtaki or Hon Yama.
You can bet you boots that 330Mate, Tanaka, Kimura, Imanshi and others all own old Nakayama stock, and they know it and cherish it. I was in Hitomi's shop in Yagi out in the valley, he has a whole stack of Nakayama, so does Ohirs mines' Ishihara. They will gladly sell them to you as unmarked Nakayama stones for a big mark-up.
About all of these Ozuko & Shobudani stamped stones. Those mines closed about a hundred years ago, those miners never even thought of stamping their stones, they only sold them by the 100 kilo to the wholesalers. There never were copyrighted stamps for Ozuko or Shobudani when the mines were open so all these stones you guys are buying are just newly slabbed up rock from storage and stamped with newly make up stamps. Notice that they are all fresh ink. The stone is millions of years old just like the other mines but the product is fresh. No one owns the Ozuko mine and this is why the stamps are being used.
The kiita stone that Stefan mentioned at $5,000 is not a new thing in Japan. But I can assure you that there are no Ohira kiita at that price, or Ozaki kiita or Ozuko kiita or Shobudani kiita at that price. Why?
First lets assume that the miners and wholesalers and the collectors and the carpenters who can build a house using only joints and were born and raised in Japan and can speak Japanese, might know a little bit more about stones then us here in the U.S.. Why? The reason is because by the experts the Nakayama stones have alwasy been regarded to be superior to the other mines. It is no mystery that some mine has to have better stones, and the experts in Japan have recognized that for hundreds of years. Just like Ferreri's are faster than Fords. Sure there are a handful of Fords that can compete but as a whole the Nakayama stones have always been better and it is just a fact of geology and geography.
Back to the stamps. Hatanaka-san is trying to maintain his copyrights, but there are no owners of Shobudani or Ozaki or copyrights to defend, so there will be some stones that are stamped Ozuko that are not really Ozuko stones. They could just as easily be stamped Tommy's stone. Ozuku is not a mine or a place now, just a name of a memory. Any plain gray stone on all 6 sides is just that, a plain gray stone. If that stone has some kawa skin on one side or the back it can be traced to a particular mine with some accuracy. Ozuko is trendy now and ripe for false statements or stamps, but if it is just a hard gray stone its no big deal at $150-$500 a pop. When a stone goes over $1000 it should have some kawa to deciphor or of a particular strata that is easily recognizable like the strikingly lovely renge from Ohira, the diagonal grain of Mizukihara or the before mentioned kiita of Nakayama.
Rarity is important in Japan but in the trades quality is king, every mine in the Atago area has kiita and renge layers, but some mines stand out above all others for particular strata. I can assure you that Nakayama has level 5+++ stones, it is just that in Japan those 5+++ stones are not well thought of, too hard-too scratchy-too slow. With a diamond nagura they can be used, or with Aichi nagura they make a great platform to sharpen with your expensive nagura grit but the stones provide very little action with just clear water. All the mines in Japan produced very hard gray stones and most of it has never been sold and now are in storage or were crushed into abrasive powder for polishing lenses and such.
Alx
Here are 2 pages from a much larger publication of the registered ink stamps of the Kyoto Stone Union. One page out of 3 of the Hatanaka (not Kato) and a page out of 3 for Tanaka. See, these are all wholesalers stamps.
http://www.thejapanblade.com/images/stamps.jpg