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I am looking for a general opinion in regards to Chosera 5K v Shapton 6K. I know both are good but which would you advise to get?
My current progression is
Chosera 400, 1K, 3K .... Katayama 8K, Shapton 16K, Balsa strops, leather.
As you can see I really can use a stone in 5K range. I love my choseras I find that 16K shapton sometimes dulls the edge.
Chosera would be about $130 Shapton would be about $80 so I can get a base for $30 and still save :)
Man is a tough one.
Thanks for your input.
I think your current progression is fine. I go from the Naniwa 3K to 8K all the time followed by the Shapton Glass 16K and end up with nice edges. I also use the 5K to 8K and then finishing stone so that is another good alternative.
Have fun.
I agree - progression looks sound without a 5k.
The Chosera 5k is usually followed by a 10k, and the 3k chosera is such a good hone that the jump from 3k to 8k is not much.
I like the 16k shapton glass - had a few of them, but have since replaced mine with a shpton pro 15k which seems - to me at least - a bit more versatile.
Regards,
Neil
This is what makes the sport so much fun. I have tried a set of the Shapton Pro's twice and never got the consistency that I do with the Shapton Glass, so I got rid of them. I think the trick is finding that stone and regiment that becomes reliable for you and sticking with it. Of course we need to experiment with all those other stones and progressions though, just to make sure we understand them.........:rock:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
The Shapton GS 16K is a wonderful hone but it can be misunderstood. I say this because it is a bit different than other finishers out there. It cuts very fast and you want to be well assured that it is lapped flat (although Shaptons don't warp or swell too much compared to others) and the edges should be champfered (sp?). We are after all putting finishing final touches on the edge. While we are used to using a lot of strokes (comparatively speaking) on finishers (especially natural ones) with slurry etc. this does not work well with the 16K. Sometimes I've got the most out of this stone with just 4 X strokes- seriously. While it is fast and efficient, yet finicky, it does give you good feedback on the feel when honing. A lot of guys will abandon this stone, buy others, to later come back to it. They just needed to understand where to 'dial it in'. So for me, when I'm sleepy, tired or not confident in having smooth strokes I may use a Naniwa or Norton. They are a bit more forgiving. But when I'm alert and confident I know the Shapton 16K, if I choose to use it, will get me where I need to go quickly- actually scary quick. The edge sometimes needs to be smoothed out a bit more (by a super finisher or strop) but after the 16K it will be very sharp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ridnovir
To be honest, the reasons I chose to go with the shapton pro 15k rather than the shapton 16k glass are:
1. The glass stone's surface moved about too much - it undulated in some spots one day and was raised in those areas the next day, even if I lapped it after use. I spent a lot of time lapping it.
2. Because I spent so much time lapping, I wanted a stone that was easier to lap (not as hard) and which did not 'move' as much as the 16k... the 15k is a little softer and does not 'move' much.
3. I use slurry (horrors!) and the 15k is much thicker than the 16k.
My decision really had little to do with the edge left by either hone.
Regards,
Neil
Ah, the wonderful world of the mid-range stones. Either of the stones you listed would be good as a pre-polisher, but there are lots of other options out there. You can always skip this range, but I find I need to spend less time on the higher-grit stones if I've laid down a good 6K finish. The 5-6K range is also a good off-ramp for heading off to natural finishers.
If you're happy with the Kitayama 8K, why not consider the Arashiyama 6K? Both Imanishi stones, and they're fairly complementary, since they're both made from natural stone particles in a binder, and they have the same indeterminacy in their grit ratings. The Arashiyama is also known as the Takenoko 8000 and can sometimes be found cheaper under this name.
If you like the feel of the Chosera line, there is the Yellow Penguin 6K from JWW. I've had one of these for a couple of years and it's very good. It's a Naniwa, polishes slightly better than the Chosera 5K and runs about $85.
If you've used and like the Naniwa Snow White 8K, the Suehiro 'Shiramina' 6K is similar in feel. In the US, it goes under the mellifluous name of 'Steelex D1070'. It's slow to dry out for storage, but otherwise good. I parked mine, upside down, in the sun for a while to melt the
If you happen to have a Norton 8K lying around (as so many of us do) then - surprise - you already have a mid-range pre-polisher. At 3 microns, it fits in just shy of 5K JIS mark. The Shapton Glass 6K is 2.45 microns and the Chosera 5K is about 2.8. You can use the Norton and then move on to a real 8K. Or the Kitayama, which is anywhere from 8-12K depending on who you ask.
I've tried a bunch of stones in the 5-6K JIS range, and my favorites are the Naniwa/Penguin/whatever 6K and the MG70, a gray magnesia stone that goes under a lot of names. The only stone in the range that I dislike is the King Ice Bear 6K, which just feels wrong to me. Not sure why, but I don't like the feel of the thing. The scratch pattern is very much in line with all the other 6K stones I've tried, though, and other people seem to like it.
I've got a Suehiro 'Rika' (supposedly a 5K, some controversy there) and a Sigma Power 6K on order, so my exploration of this grit range is far from over. So far, I haven't found a stone that didn't work.
Does the 16k dull the edge or do you dull the edge with the 16k ? ;). Is your 8k edge already shaving well ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ridnovir
After Kitayama it passes hht with ease. After 16k shapton the hht is noticeably difficult the edge comes back on 1m Diamond on Balsa though and gets even better on CrOX on balsa and 0.25m Dimanod on Balsa. I suspect that i spend way too m much time on 16k I will try fewer strokes next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Looks like my progression is fine an mid range stone is not necessary. Might end up with Chosera 5k after although Arashiyama 6K or Penguin 6K are two stones that I will consider as well (sadly I cannot find much info on these).
The Kitayama doesn't know it's not a jnat. Depending on your technique, and the length of time you spend on the stone, it's possible that you're actually going up in grit when you get to the Shapton, effectively dulling the edge. The Kitayama has friable particles, so you're creating a finer and finer grit the longer you work the slurry. There are those who use the stone as an 8K with a slurry, then move to a 10K while the slurry dries out a bit on the K, then back to the K for a finish that feels a lot like 12K. Or you can stay on the K and gradually shove most of the slurry off the ends, ending with light strokes on a damp (but not dry) stone.
You're applying three different treatments to the blade in a very small window from 1.2 microns (nominal 8K JIS) to .92, and given the variance in actual particle size, pressure, sunspots, etc, it's possible for any of the latter steps to eliminate the work done by the previous ones.
If you're up for some experimenting, try deleting the 1m spray and the Shapton from your progression. Build a slurry on the K with a diamond plate, hone normally past the stiction phase, then start diluting the slurry and lightening your strokes. Continue until the stone is nearly dry, then strop and see what you've got. You might want to use the .25 diamond afterward, but it may not be necessary. I did this today with a pretty dull blade and was impressed with the results.
If the diamond helps after the 16k it may be that it has cleaned up a false edge or micro burr from too many strokes on the 16. After that point you could do say, 2 or 3 feather light strokes on the 16k again & see how it shaves. Another experiment. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ridnovir
btw , not advocating excessive laps on any stone but it can happen.
I would invest in a decent triplet loupe or a USB scope and see what the edge looks like, both pre- and post the 16k glass stone. Obviously something is amiss there. I have seen the Kitayama touted as an 8k, 10k and 12k, so if you are pushing it towards the 10k or 12k end and then spending a lot of time on the 16k, which would be a minimal step in the progression (and in this case probably not necessary), you are possibly over-honing. If so, use the Kitayama 8k as an 8k, ie no slurry, just water, and just enough laps to refine the bevel, then on to the 16k.
Regards,
Neil
Used without a slurry, the Kitayama tends to leave a ragged edge, not even as smooth as a Norton 8K provides in the same time. This is a big part of why I decided to use mine for kitchen knives rather than razors. If you work the stone a bit, it fights well above its weight grit-wise, but it's not really as much of a splash-and-go as, say, the Naniwa SW. The edge I got on the K yesterday provided a very good shave today, but it took a long time to get that edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
I can't seem to find my Shapton Pro 8K scratch-test, so I can't do a loupe comparison with it and my other 8Ks. I have some stones on order with Stu, so I'll probably re-do the Shapton test when I do the new guys if/when they get here. There are two 8Ks in that order, so my beloved SW may finally get some real competition.
Anyway, closer to the original topic, I feel that the 5-6K range stones are optional but fun, and the Kitayama is an idiosyncratic stone that might be better off replaced with a more mainstream 8K, like a Naniwa Super Stone or the GS 8K. However, if the OP is happy with the edges he's getting with his current setup, there's no real tearing hurry to add or replace stones anywhere in his progression.
I don't think he is happy - why post in the first place otherwise?
The point of using the Kitayama as an 8k was to see if he was over-honing with the 16k, nothing else.
Regards,
Neil
I am pretty happy with my set up and the edges I get. With improved technique and skill the edges will get better. I just thought that a mid range stone would not hurt to have and wanted to know the general opinion on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Smaller jumps ie more stones, means you can do less work on each stone & make smaller changes to the edge at each grit. It's not crucial for the shave but allows for a nice polish for those of us with OCD. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ridnovir
Also some stones, even from the same maker may have different characteristics e.g. the Shapton Pro 1k & 1.5k . Not a lot of difference in grit rating, huge difference in their construction which could mean certain steels prefer one or the other.
As has been said earlier, I think you can work fine with what you have. With more experience you can see if an anomaly turns up in the progression that requires maybe an extra stone or maybe even a replacement. Sometimes it's just easier to stick to a progression of the same make... Unless experimentation is your thing.