Can't get a sharp edge off Shapton 8K and 16K

I've owned the Shapton 1/4/8/16K setup for a couple of months now, watched enough videos and read a lot on honing, but I get the feeling I'm not getting great edges off these hones. The one time I stumbled on a good (but just not sharp enough) edge was when I used lather on the 8K, but it gave me harsh edges off the 16K. I cannot detect differences between various brands of razors, so I suppose the fault is on me.

Knowing myself, this is going to be a pretty long read, but I'll be as comprehensive as I know how to, to save you from typing answers I already have ;)

So here is what I do (and some additional notes and questions):
- I spend quite some time on the 1K to set a nice bevel. Circles, X strokes, pressure, finishing without pressure, until the edge is already very shiny and even. Starts to get sticky with the TPT, shaves arm hair well, but I don't get feedback/suction from the hone. Should I get feedback/suction on the 1K?
- About as much time for the 4K, basically the same thing. Starting to feel some feedback, but not much. Backward and forward stroke don't feel the same in terms of suction.
- No pressure strokes on the 8K, getting very little feedback. The only way I can stick the razor to the hone is by doing the same as 1K/4K: circles and x strokes with pressure, finishing without pressure. That way, the razor really sticks to the hone.
- BUT, moving on to the 16K, again, I get no feedback from the hone.

- I keep track of my progress with the HHT. It climbs up till where I use pressure on the 8K. When I finish without pressure, the HHT result drops a little. Moving on to the 16K does not improve the HHT. Stropping does a lot. (I know all about the controversy of the HHT)
- I tried lather on the 8K a few times with good result, but I'm not sure if it's good for the hone. Hence, I want to learn to use just water.


The shave:
I have a tough beard, but Feathers cut right through with minimal resistance. I want the same or close from my straight razors. However, after my honing and stropping routine, I get a little tug WTG and a bit too much tug ATG, forcing me to perform scything and slicing passes and still not getting the wonderful results I get with a Feather blade (or an Astra, for that matter).


The questions:
- How sharp, in terms of resistance while shaving and/or in comparison to DE blades, should a razor coming off the 8K/16K be? Does it get close to Feather sharpness?
- What am I doing wrong?
- The Feather shaves tells me my shaving technique and beard prep are good, or is that presumptuous?

I don't know what you are doing wrong, and we don't have the same beard, but I get feather quality shaves out of my straights. Smooth with no pulling, irritation ..... I don't have those hones but guys who do, including some of the pros, seem to get really good results with them.

Generally if I'm not getting a good shave at 8k moving up to 16 isn't the answer. More like moving back to 4k. Not trying to be a smarty pants, just honestly what I would do. Back to 4 then up to 8k and shave test at that level. If it is good at 8 it is ready to go up to 16. Also check out the fundamentals, like using marker to make sure your making contact from heel to point and magnification, even if it is only an eye loupe to assess the bevel. I don't need to do that with all blades but if I'm having problems it helps to eliminate some variables. :gl:

I'm going to that, as much as you may think it is, your bevel is not set.

The dressing of the Shapton glass is very important for the smoothness of the blade. By dressing I mean how you finish the stone before getting steel on it. I usually use an Atoma 400 or well worn DMT 325, for the 1k,2k, and 4k, for the 8k, I get smoother edges out of it when I dress it with the Atoma 1200 or a coticule slury stone (a fine 1000k wet sand paper would do, just make sure you wash the stone after.). That's one thing.

I don't get suction on all my razors, but even the razors that don't show suction, I get good edges from it. Try setting a good bevel is my first thing. I rather use my cheap king 1000k to set the bevel than the Shapton glass 1000k. I find that unless the bevel is almost there I don't get consistent with setting a bevel with the Shapton glass 1k. I'm sure it can be done I just chicken out and use my Chosera 1k. If I'm re-sharpening a blade that has a good bevel, I go to the Shapton glass 1k with good results. That's the other thing.

Pressure (too much) kill my sharpness every time. Having good markers (cutting arm/leg hair) the TPT, nail test, loop, light reflection and others that I fail to mention its important when you are starting. The only way to know them is by using them along your honing and correlating them to the final shave. In other words, you learn by doing them. I now use the arm hair test with the nail test for the bevel, then the loop and arm/leg hair for the polishing (even scratch pattern with each stone and even improveness of cutting ease along the edge on the root of the hairs) and TPT for the final 8k, before moving to the true finishers. I don't do HHT until the final stropping, and only with the mid section of my leg hair. Once you get the idea on the markers, you can tell if the edge went back on sharpness or is improving. And that's the third thing. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Double O

Thanks guys! I'm going to look into dressing the high grits and see what differences it gives me. I'm also revisiting my shaving technique, as I reckon I am not handling my shavette exactly the same as I do a straight. I don't have any other bevel setters than the Shapton 1K, so I'll have to make do with that.

The last thing I tried, was a 4/8K pyramid, with pretty good results. I'll give that razor a few wipes on the 16K and see if I can detect a difference. If not, I will assume it was not at 8K level. I'll keep in touch!

If your blade isn't giving you a good shave off the 8 you're wasting your time going further. If you have good facility with the hones, I find when the higher grits don't seem to be doing much the problem lies with the bevel. It's like a house, have a bad foundation and the house just cracks and leans and basically is never right.

I've been a shapton junkie for quite some time. I would be willing to bet that my average number of strokes on 8K are somewhere around 20-30, 10-20 on 16K...sounds like you are WAY higher. I don't do circles after 4K unless I am touching up a razor. After the bevel is set, all you are doing is refining the edge, expecially after 4K.

My recommendation to you is to try Lynn's pyramid honing on 4 & 8K after you have the bevel set as I am afraid you are overhoning. Leave the 16K alone until you have a blade comfortably shaving off 8K, then give the blade 10-12 x strokes on 16K followed by 100 x on plain leather.

A little update:
I tried the 4/8K pyramid a few days ago and the shave was better than I normally got from the 8K. Still not quite as sharp as I would like, but quite good all the same. I gave it 10 laps on the 16K and noted a significant improvement :) However, going against the grain around my lips is still near impossible without a heavy scything/slicing pass. Skin stretching is of course pretty difficult there, but Feathers perform much better.

Shooter: As for the number of laps on the 16K, I usually do 10, maybe 15. Is overhoning on the 8K possible? I have tried 10-20 laps after the 4K and really missed something, so I tried many laps instead. The pyramid did help here.

I should have some .5 micron diamonds of unknown quality coming in soon. I wonder how well that will perform and I will post the results here.


Thanks for your recommendations! If I can get pretty consistent results out of my Shaptons soon, I will send a blade over to a friend for a second opinion and let you know what he thinks. I'll get there :)

According to the razor, yes, overhoning on 8K is possible...I had a lot of problems with this when learning to hone as I was just trying too hard. Each razor has it's own maximum to how far you can push it before the edge will just give out. Once you "get there", you will notice how the razor feels on the stones. I don't count laps any more, it's just a feel. What I am concerned with is that it seems like you are trying to use knife sharpening techniques with your learning to hone. These are as different as night and day. One of the first things I do when I have someone over for honing lessons is show them how much pressure "I" use. I first place the stone in their hand and mine under theirs and make a few passes. Then I get them to hold the razor and I show them how I handle the razor. May make some uncomfortable, but they "get it" quite quickly then.

When you get the diamonds, please just let them sit as all you will be doing is polishing a piece of fecal matter. Pastes & spray's can hide a problem, kind of like makeup on a woman: it's meant to enhance the beauty of a woman. If you can't get a quality shave from a 1,4,8K honing on razor, you and the razor need more work. You keep hearing this time and time again for a reason... You might look at the thread "shaving off 1K". You might pick up some valuable information there.

Do you have any magnification to look at what's going on with the blade?

Im thinking the bevel is not set as was said. I would dull on glass and reset the bevel. Strop and test shave after the 1k. Just the cheeks and see where it is. If it cuts plenty then continue to your next grit. JMHO. I have never come across an edge that crashed at a high grit. Im not saying theres no such animal, but so far no. (400 + blades honed)

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

According to the razor, yes, overhoning on 8K is possible...I had a lot of problems with this when learning to hone as I was just trying too hard.

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This has applied to me quite a few times: trying too hard. Perhaps the pyramid approach prevents this as well. Maybe tonight I'll do a late night pyramid on a different razor than the one I used this morning.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Im thinking the bevel is not set as was said. I would dull on glass and reset the bevel. Strop and test shave after the 1k. Just the cheeks and see where it is. If it cuts plenty then continue to your next grit. JMHO. I have never come across an edge that crashed at a high grit. Im not saying theres no such animal, but so far no. (400 + blades honed)

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I read the 1K shave thread a while ago and while I'm loath to try a 1K shave, I'll give it a go soon. I do get sticky edges off the 1K, but with the toughness of my beard, I'm not looking forward to it.


Another question: I followed Lynn's routine of setting the bevel at 1K, doing pressure and no-pressure circles on the 4K to sharpen. If the bevel is set well on the 1K, could I go to the 4K without pressure? Perhaps I am overdoing the 4K, if that is possible.

You can overdo anything. I think the 1k shave will reveal alot. Smoothness problem s are different than sharpness problems. The 1k shave you are looking for cutting power, not smooth. If it cuts it all off for a few swipes on the cheek you are good imo. Extra pyramid on the 4k helped you so it seems the bevel is being corrected there.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

You can overdo anything.

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Including the 1K? I spend a lot of time there to get a uniform, shiny bevel and sticky edge. If the 1K can be overdone, that could explain why I think the bevel is there, while it actually is not.

I am new to all this, and myself I am concerned about over honing.
How does one fix an over-honed edge?
I ground a chip out of my blade with a barbers hone - and I may be suffering this.

Yes you can overhone on the 1k. This could give you a bur or wire edge. I go by visual. Then when it looks like its set, I tnt or arm hair test or test shave. So visual and one of the other tests.

Good to know. I've never noticed a burr or wire edge off the 1K. I'll use the TNT and AHT alongside the TPT to see if I can get a better idea of the progress on the 1K. And I do use visual, both with and without a loop, but mostly to see if I covered the entire bevel.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

So here is what I do (and some additional notes and questions):
- I spend quite some time on the 1K to set a nice bevel. Circles, X strokes, pressure, finishing without pressure, until the edge is already very shiny and even. Starts to get sticky with the TPT, shaves arm hair well, but I don't get feedback/suction from the hone. Sounds ok to here. Should I get feedback/suction on the 1K? How does suction or feedback make the razor shave better ? Rhetorical question. It doesn't :)
- About as much time for the 4K, basically the same thing. Starting to feel some feedback, but not much. Backward and forward stroke don't feel the same in terms of suction. I think here is where you maybe doing too much then trying to fix it on 8k by forcing the issue with pressure. This is especially a point where pressure does not belong. If you use magnification even at 1k you will see the edge start to shine up well below the shoulder of the bevel using light strokes. This is no paradox as you are simply thinning the side of the blade when using pressure & not honing the edge.
- No pressure strokes on the 8K, getting very little feedback. The only way I can stick the razor to the hone is by doing the same as 1K/4K: circles and x strokes with pressure, finishing without pressure. That way, the razor really sticks to the hone. Does it shave well when you do this ? :shrug:
- BUT, moving on to the 16K, again, I get no feedback from the hone. You could try superglue to stick the razor to the stone. :p Sorry for the sarcasm :) but I just don't see the point in trying to achieve some sensation on the stone when cutting hair is your goal.

- I keep track of my progress with the HHT. It climbs up till where I use pressure on the 8K. When I finish without pressure, the HHT result drops a little. Moving on to the 16K does not improve the HHT. Stropping does a lot. (I know all about the controversy of the HHT) I think this is a clue. Stropping should help but if it is required during the shave it can be a sign of a not so sturdy edge. Do you notice performance worsening near the end of the shave ?
- I tried lather on the 8K a few times with good result, but I'm not sure if it's good for the hone. Hence, I want to learn to use just water. I would stick to water. Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals.


The shave:
I have a tough beard, but Feathers cut right through with minimal resistance. I want the same or close from my straight razors. However, after my honing and stropping routine, I get a little tug WTG and a bit too much tug ATG, forcing me to perform scything and slicing passes and still not getting the wonderful results I get with a Feather blade (or an Astra, for that matter). You need to buy a razor that can take that kind of edge but also hold it or you will be rehoning as frequently as you replace a Feather. Needless to say a full hollow will help achieve that with less work than a wedge.


The questions:
- How sharp, in terms of resistance while shaving and/or in comparison to DE blades, should a razor coming off the 8K/16K be? Does it get close to Feather sharpness?
Depends on the razor. Some yes some no. Some for only a pass or 2. :)
- What am I doing wrong? I believe you are wrecking the edge at 4k. Pressure is of no use after the 1k. I don't know what you are trying to achieve by feeling suction or whatever feedback you seek but essentially if the razor is shaving armchair well at 1k it should only get better as you go, unless the steel will not take a good edge for some reason.
- The Feather shaves tells me my shaving technique and beard prep are good, or is that presumptuous? Not so much but I imagine the technique is different

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I would really try a less vigorous approach with an occasional light strop for 2 or 3 strokes when you are ready to test a stage of honing or if sharpness seems to drop.. Sometimes you do"apparently" lose sharpness but the most minimal of stropping can return it. Imagine what pressure on a stone might do to that edge.
Also if at some point you create a burr, it can happen with unevenly sharp edges, the next stone will always remove it with light strokes.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I would really try a less vigorous approach with an occasional light strop for 2 or 3 strokes when you are ready to test a stage of honing or if sharpness seems to drop.. Sometimes you do"apparently" lose sharpness but the most minimal of stropping can return it. Imagine what pressure on a stone might do to that edge.
Also if at some point you create a burr, it can happen with unevenly sharp edges, the next stone will always remove it with light strokes.

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Thank you, Oz, I will go easier on the 4K and try the light stropping between hones. I definitely have met the apparent sharpness loss, which I always attributed to the microserrations becoming smoother. I got the pressurised circles from Lynn's video, but I'll take them out.

As for the feedback, I keep reading and hearing that Shaptons "tell" you when you're done at a certain stage. It sounds like a perfect way of knowing how you're doing: the stone tells you when it has done its job. I may however, as you point out, have given it too much credit, disregarding all else.

I have never honed on superglue, and you contradict yourself by saying Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals :hmmm:

Recently, I tried stropping between two passes, and I couldn't tell a difference. I think at least that much is a good sign, the edge is not too fragile.


Again, thank you, all of you guys! You really keep me going when things get frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

Thank you, Oz, I will go easier on the 4K and try the light stropping between hones. I definitely have met the apparent sharpness loss, which I always attributed to the microserrations becoming smoother. I got the pressurised circles from Lynn's video, but I'll take them out.
S'ok Laurens. We sometimes have to postulate with honing as to what is happening but generally things have to get sharper as we go. Pressure is a very useful tool especially at bevel set. Don't necessarily stop using it. How much pressure tho is related to the razor at hand. Videos are great but if you treat a wedge & a singing razor the same way you may get different results.. Try to glean the underlying principles demonstrated rather than just use a formula. Even the famous pyramid method has different starting points.

As for the feedback, I keep reading and hearing that Shaptons "tell" you when you're done at a certain stage. It sounds like a perfect way of knowing how you're doing: the stone tells you when it has done its job. I may however, as you point out, have given it too much credit, disregarding all else. Or you were forcing the sensations you seek ? Maybe ? You may be surprised that at a reduced pressure you can feel more.

I have never honed on superglue, and you contradict yourself by saying Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals :hmmm: This is where my theory falls to the ground in flames.:)

Recently, I tried stropping between two passes, and I couldn't tell a difference. I think at least that much is a good sign, the edge is not too fragile.


Again, thank you, all of you guys! You really keep me going when things get frustrating.

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Just let the stones do the work once the bevel is set. Hang in there & keep us posted .

Have you lapped your stones since you used shaving cream on them? If not, I would recommend it. Shapton GS's shouldn't bead water. Some shaving creams will makes stones bead water. Honing isn't something you will get overnight, you will get it!

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Have you lapped your stones since you used shaving cream on them? If not, I would recommend it. Shapton GS's shouldn't bead water. Some shaving creams will makes stones bead water. Honing isn't something you will get overnight, you will get it!

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I lapped lightly two or three times and used a natural nagura about as many times. The beading is mostly gone, though the 16K may need some more treatment. It's too bad, I like the super smooth edge I got off the lathered 8K, but I worry about the 8K more. I will be nicer to it and use water only.
Can liquid dish soap be used? I know I read about it, but I don't remember what.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

Can liquid dish soap be used?

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Definitely not according to Shap Pro instructs but I can't remember re the GS. Both are ceramic so I'd play it safe. I remember not using washing soda on my GS when I transitioned from Kings.

I will tell you what I have done for about 4 years with my Shapton GS's and you can make that decision from there. I use a spray bottle like a window cleaner or all purpose spray cleaner comes in. Give it a good rinsing out, including the sprayer. I fill it 3/4 full of warm water and then add ONE drop of dishwashing soap. We use Dawn here at home. I keep my hones pretty wet when honing, but a full spray bottle will last me through a honing session of 5-6 razors no problem. The instructions do say not to use soap...gotta throw that out there in case your stones just evaporate into glass plates if you add a drop of soap to the water...

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Originally Posted by jjsrp

I am new to all this, and myself I am concerned about over honing.
How does one fix an over-honed edge?
I ground a chip out of my blade with a barbers hone - and I may be suffering this.

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The experts will chime in here in a minute, but I've seen someone take the burr off the edge by taking the razor on the hone and gently moving the razor up and down the hone in the stropping direction. I believe the person may have only done 1 or two passes. But then, they had to touch up again.

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Originally Posted by Siguy

The experts will chime in here in a minute, but I've seen someone take the burr off the edge by taking the razor on the hone and gently moving the razor up and down the hone in the stropping direction. I believe the person may have only done 1 or two passes. But then, they had to touch up again.

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Is this done with the spine touching the stone or not?
Jody

Please don't try it without confirmation first whether this is a sound way to deburr an edge as I'm inexperienced, but the spine and edge was flat on the hone, however, the leading edge was the spine(same direction that you'd strop).

Can't find the vid, but didn't want you to try it without confirmation.

Cheers... Love the sig

Something I noticed in this thread that i don't see commented on otherwise: that you are going from shavette to SR. In some video somewhere (Lynn's Beginner Shave IIRC) Lynn talks about BIG DIFFERENCE in angles one can get away with on the Feathers (when removing whiskers)--that do not translate to a solid-blade, stone-honed, razor. Basically that one must keep the "real" razor much tighter (more parallel) to the skin than the Feather-powered shaver.

Also, I wondered about your tape. Tape wear can "soften" the angle enough to "confuse" the edge. Keep your tape fresh.

that and sometimes less is more. cheers HTH.

Lauren is this a Gold Dollar razor ? I know by conversation that some hones favor certain steels. I do not discount this as an excuse to own 400 hones :<0)

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Originally Posted by WadePatton

Something I noticed in this thread that i don't see commented on otherwise: that you are going from shavette to SR. In some video somewhere (Lynn's Beginner Shave IIRC) Lynn talks about BIG DIFFERENCE in angles one can get away with on the Feathers (when removing whiskers)--that do not translate to a solid-blade, stone-honed, razor. Basically that one must keep the "real" razor much tighter (more parallel) to the skin than the Feather-powered shaver.

Also, I wondered about your tape. Tape wear can "soften" the angle enough to "confuse" the edge. Keep your tape fresh.

that and sometimes less is more. cheers HTH.

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That's a new fact to me, thank you! It makes sense that Feathers react differently because of their teflon coating.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Lauren is this a Gold Dollar razor ? I know by conversation that some hones favor certain steels. I do not discount this as an excuse to own 400 hones :<0)

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Not only Gold Dollars, but ERNs too. 400 hones, eh? I'll settle for a quarter anytime.


A more experienced member here PM'ed me and asked me to send two razors for him to evaluate my honing skills. He would then put Jnat edges on them for me to compare. I received them and shaved with both and we have reached the same conclusion: My honing isn't as bad as I think. The edges are sharp, but they probably became sharper gradually and I failed to notice. When I compared an SR to an Astra blade recently, they felt remarkably similar, unlike when I did the comparison a few months ago.

As of now, I will revisit my shaving technique and lather making skills. Especially the latter has a much greater influence than I first thought, I tend to make my lather too wet.


Thank you all for your help, you keep me going when I'm losing my spirit :)

Honing really is simpler than shaving

yo. ;)

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Originally Posted by WadePatton

Honing really is simpler than shaving

yo. ;)

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yeah?
Read my quote...
:hmmm: