Thread: Can't get a sharp edge off Shapton 8K and 16K

I've owned the Shapton 1/4/8/16K setup for a couple of months now, watched enough videos and read a lot on honing, but I get the feeling I'm not getting great edges off these hones. The one time I stumbled on a good (but just not sharp enough) edge was when I used lather on the 8K, but it gave me harsh edges off the 16K. I cannot detect differences between various brands of razors, so I suppose the fault is on me.

Knowing myself, this is going to be a pretty long read, but I'll be as comprehensive as I know how to, to save you from typing answers I already have

So here is what I do (and some additional notes and questions):
- I spend quite some time on the 1K to set a nice bevel. Circles, X strokes, pressure, finishing without pressure, until the edge is already very shiny and even. Starts to get sticky with the TPT, shaves arm hair well, but I don't get feedback/suction from the hone. Should I get feedback/suction on the 1K?
- About as much time for the 4K, basically the same thing. Starting to feel some feedback, but not much. Backward and forward stroke don't feel the same in terms of suction.
- No pressure strokes on the 8K, getting very little feedback. The only way I can stick the razor to the hone is by doing the same as 1K/4K: circles and x strokes with pressure, finishing without pressure. That way, the razor really sticks to the hone.
- BUT, moving on to the 16K, again, I get no feedback from the hone.

- I keep track of my progress with the HHT. It climbs up till where I use pressure on the 8K. When I finish without pressure, the HHT result drops a little. Moving on to the 16K does not improve the HHT. Stropping does a lot. (I know all about the controversy of the HHT)
- I tried lather on the 8K a few times with good result, but I'm not sure if it's good for the hone. Hence, I want to learn to use just water.


The shave:
I have a tough beard, but Feathers cut right through with minimal resistance. I want the same or close from my straight razors. However, after my honing and stropping routine, I get a little tug WTG and a bit too much tug ATG, forcing me to perform scything and slicing passes and still not getting the wonderful results I get with a Feather blade (or an Astra, for that matter).


The questions:
- How sharp, in terms of resistance while shaving and/or in comparison to DE blades, should a razor coming off the 8K/16K be? Does it get close to Feather sharpness?
- What am I doing wrong?
- The Feather shaves tells me my shaving technique and beard prep are good, or is that presumptuous?

I don't know what you are doing wrong, and we don't have the same beard, but I get feather quality shaves out of my straights. Smooth with no pulling, irritation ..... I don't have those hones but guys who do, including some of the pros, seem to get really good results with them.

Generally if I'm not getting a good shave at 8k moving up to 16 isn't the answer. More like moving back to 4k. Not trying to be a smarty pants, just honestly what I would do. Back to 4 then up to 8k and shave test at that level. If it is good at 8 it is ready to go up to 16. Also check out the fundamentals, like using marker to make sure your making contact from heel to point and magnification, even if it is only an eye loupe to assess the bevel. I don't need to do that with all blades but if I'm having problems it helps to eliminate some variables.

I'm going to that, as much as you may think it is, your bevel is not set.

The dressing of the Shapton glass is very important for the smoothness of the blade. By dressing I mean how you finish the stone before getting steel on it. I usually use an Atoma 400 or well worn DMT 325, for the 1k,2k, and 4k, for the 8k, I get smoother edges out of it when I dress it with the Atoma 1200 or a coticule slury stone (a fine 1000k wet sand paper would do, just make sure you wash the stone after.). That's one thing.

I don't get suction on all my razors, but even the razors that don't show suction, I get good edges from it. Try setting a good bevel is my first thing. I rather use my cheap king 1000k to set the bevel than the Shapton glass 1000k. I find that unless the bevel is almost there I don't get consistent with setting a bevel with the Shapton glass 1k. I'm sure it can be done I just chicken out and use my Chosera 1k. If I'm re-sharpening a blade that has a good bevel, I go to the Shapton glass 1k with good results. That's the other thing.

Pressure (too much) kill my sharpness every time. Having good markers (cutting arm/leg hair) the TPT, nail test, loop, light reflection and others that I fail to mention its important when you are starting. The only way to know them is by using them along your honing and correlating them to the final shave. In other words, you learn by doing them. I now use the arm hair test with the nail test for the bevel, then the loop and arm/leg hair for the polishing (even scratch pattern with each stone and even improveness of cutting ease along the edge on the root of the hairs) and TPT for the final 8k, before moving to the true finishers. I don't do HHT until the final stropping, and only with the mid section of my leg hair. Once you get the idea on the markers, you can tell if the edge went back on sharpness or is improving. And that's the third thing. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Double O

Thanks guys! I'm going to look into dressing the high grits and see what differences it gives me. I'm also revisiting my shaving technique, as I reckon I am not handling my shavette exactly the same as I do a straight. I don't have any other bevel setters than the Shapton 1K, so I'll have to make do with that.

The last thing I tried, was a 4/8K pyramid, with pretty good results. I'll give that razor a few wipes on the 16K and see if I can detect a difference. If not, I will assume it was not at 8K level. I'll keep in touch!

If your blade isn't giving you a good shave off the 8 you're wasting your time going further. If you have good facility with the hones, I find when the higher grits don't seem to be doing much the problem lies with the bevel. It's like a house, have a bad foundation and the house just cracks and leans and basically is never right.

I've been a shapton junkie for quite some time. I would be willing to bet that my average number of strokes on 8K are somewhere around 20-30, 10-20 on 16K...sounds like you are WAY higher. I don't do circles after 4K unless I am touching up a razor. After the bevel is set, all you are doing is refining the edge, expecially after 4K.

My recommendation to you is to try Lynn's pyramid honing on 4 & 8K after you have the bevel set as I am afraid you are overhoning. Leave the 16K alone until you have a blade comfortably shaving off 8K, then give the blade 10-12 x strokes on 16K followed by 100 x on plain leather.

A little update:
I tried the 4/8K pyramid a few days ago and the shave was better than I normally got from the 8K. Still not quite as sharp as I would like, but quite good all the same. I gave it 10 laps on the 16K and noted a significant improvement However, going against the grain around my lips is still near impossible without a heavy scything/slicing pass. Skin stretching is of course pretty difficult there, but Feathers perform much better.

Shooter: As for the number of laps on the 16K, I usually do 10, maybe 15. Is overhoning on the 8K possible? I have tried 10-20 laps after the 4K and really missed something, so I tried many laps instead. The pyramid did help here.

I should have some .5 micron diamonds of unknown quality coming in soon. I wonder how well that will perform and I will post the results here.


Thanks for your recommendations! If I can get pretty consistent results out of my Shaptons soon, I will send a blade over to a friend for a second opinion and let you know what he thinks. I'll get there

According to the razor, yes, overhoning on 8K is possible...I had a lot of problems with this when learning to hone as I was just trying too hard. Each razor has it's own maximum to how far you can push it before the edge will just give out. Once you "get there", you will notice how the razor feels on the stones. I don't count laps any more, it's just a feel. What I am concerned with is that it seems like you are trying to use knife sharpening techniques with your learning to hone. These are as different as night and day. One of the first things I do when I have someone over for honing lessons is show them how much pressure "I" use. I first place the stone in their hand and mine under theirs and make a few passes. Then I get them to hold the razor and I show them how I handle the razor. May make some uncomfortable, but they "get it" quite quickly then.

When you get the diamonds, please just let them sit as all you will be doing is polishing a piece of fecal matter. Pastes & spray's can hide a problem, kind of like makeup on a woman: it's meant to enhance the beauty of a woman. If you can't get a quality shave from a 1,4,8K honing on razor, you and the razor need more work. You keep hearing this time and time again for a reason... You might look at the thread "shaving off 1K". You might pick up some valuable information there.

Do you have any magnification to look at what's going on with the blade?

Im thinking the bevel is not set as was said. I would dull on glass and reset the bevel. Strop and test shave after the 1k. Just the cheeks and see where it is. If it cuts plenty then continue to your next grit. JMHO. I have never come across an edge that crashed at a high grit. Im not saying theres no such animal, but so far no. (400 + blades honed)