EF DMT for Bevel Set?

I have a practice razor that I have struggled with for a while.. It's a temperamental sort for sure.

I thought I had the bevel set.. about a dozen times. But for some reason, I couldn't cut a single arm hair. I was using a King 1k. Marked the blade with a sharpie toe to heel and with just a few x-strokes the black marker was gone. That's one test. Thumb nail test revealed an even gentle tug on the edge across the edge with no 'slippery' spots. That's two tests. Cut an arm hair? Nope. Back to the 1000, again.

I noticed that there was one section in the center of the blade where the transition just didn't look as crisp as the rest. Try as I might, the King couldn't clean up that spot. I know crisp and shiny doesn't mean the bevel is set, but maybe this section of blade wasn't making good contact, as in a belly or twist on one side of the blade. I am reluctant to torque the blade too much or use too much pressure, simply because.. well, I don't know why. I think it's still a matter of not knowing what I don't know or trying something I think I understand but really don't.

In any event, I have a 6x2 DMT, Extra Fine, Green that I use for clean-up lapping and slurry. From what I read, it rated at 1200. Out of desperation I changed the tape and did about ten x-strokes on the DMT and immediately the fuzzy transition was perfectly crisp and I was passing all three tests..

It seems counter-intuitive that the 1000 should be quicker to set the bevel than the 1200, but it wasn't. The DMT seemed to so easily set the bevel that I wonder why we don't use a diamond hone for this purpose.

What am I missing?

Diamonds are much faster that any other abrasive used in water stones. Probably the DMT EEF (rated 8k) too, would be faster than the King 1k.:cool:
Before using a DMT always check if the blade is perfectly straight, if there is a belly that would be the fastest way to kill the blade.

DMT 1200 broken in and with a little dish soap on top can certainly set a bevel. A happen to think my chosera 1k is as fast though so I don't use dmts except for really hard steel or edge restores. Use the dmt then follow up on it with the king to smotth out some of the deeper scratches from the diamonds.

The DMT leaves deep scratches that take longer to hone out on the next stone, defying the purpose of its speed. Here's Glen's comparison: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...l-setting.html.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

....Use the dmt then follow up on it with the king to smotth out some of the deeper scratches from the diamonds.

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Exactly what I did...

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Originally Posted by Laurens

The DMT leaves deep scratches that take longer to hone out on the next stone, defying the purpose of its speed. Here's Glen's comparison: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...l-setting.html.

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That makes sense, but in practice, it isn't what I experienced. The 1200 did the initial bevel set almost immediately and the 1k took the scratches out in far less time than I was spending on the 1k.. I suppose if I were doing razors back to back I might think different...

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

That makes sense, but in practice, it isn't what I experienced. The 1200 did the initial bevel set almost immediately and the 1k took the scratches out in far less time than I was spending on the 1k.. I suppose if I were doing razors back to back I might think different...

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It isn't about thinking it is about feeling and edge smoothness

Many people ask about why the Chosera 10k isn't a great finisher, the grit is higher then a Norton 8k after all, again about feeling...

The DMT's can cut steel, there is no doubt about it, but over the long term average they tend toward creating harsh fragile edges, not all razors, but a tendency..

This is exactly where we get the term YMMV,, the next razor you set the bevel with on the DMT 1200 might have a different contour on the bevel and the experience will be very different, only time and razors will tell...

What time and razors has taught me is that "Sneaking" up on the edge has the greatest tendency to creating smooth shaves YMMV :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What time and razors has taught me is that "Sneaking" up on the edge has the greatest tendency to creating smooth shaves YMMV :)

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This..
While the 1200 grit DMT will cut steel in a hurry, I personally try most any other approach before going to such extremes in my honing.

Sneaking up on the edge was a good description, I liked that!

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

It isn't about thinking it is about feeling and edge smoothness

Many people ask about why the Chosera 10k isn't a great finisher, the grit is higher then a Norton 8k after all, again about feeling...

The DMT's can cut steel, there is no doubt about it, but over the long term average they tend toward creating harsh fragile edges, not all razors, but a tendency..

This is exactly where we get the term YMMV,, the next razor you set the bevel with on the DMT 1200 might have a different contour on the bevel and the experience will be very different, only time and razors will tell...

What time and razors has taught me is that "Sneaking" up on the edge has the greatest tendency to creating smooth shaves YMMV :)

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Makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

This..
While the 1200 grit DMT will cut steel in a hurry, I personally try most any other approach before going to such extremes in my honing.

Sneaking up on the edge was a good description, I liked that!

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Considering how many times I went back to the 1k, I am confident I did what I could before going to the DMT.

Can't say any other blade has given as much of a challenge with the bevel as this one.

I'll consider the DMT an arrow in the quiver meant for aggressive action and will stick to the 1k for all other.

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

Considering how many times I went back to the 1k, I am confident I did what I could before going to the DMT.

Can't say any other blade has given as much of a challenge with the bevel as this one.

I'll consider the DMT an arrow in the quiver meant for aggressive action and will stick to the 1k for all other.

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You got it :) That is the best way I have found to think of it also

Some food for thought.

Many times bevel setting can be more problematic that just finding the appropriate stone. One thing that should be kept in mind is that you need to see that the bevel goes all the way from the top to the edge regardless of how much uneven wear there may be on both sides of the razor. This is really important to watch out for when you are working on a razor that has uneven flattening on the spine (tell tale) that is not the same on both sides.

I have spent hours on bevels and thought I had them only to be fooled at the end of a honing process when I examined the blade under the microscope. Depending on the wear itself or who may have messed with the razor before you, it is not uncommon for one side of the bevel to take and yet the other side is not completely there. If you look at the bevel under a loupe or microscope when you are honing, you can see this readily. When this happens, I will do circles on the side where the bevel is incomplete until I see that the stone I am using has done it's job on that side. Once this is accomplished, you can go back to X strokes on both sides and you should find that your bevels will be much better. It really doesn't matter whether you are using a DMT, 220, or 1K depending on how aggressive you want or need to be, but it is critical that the wear be even from the top of the bevel to the edge on both sides. The microscope or loupe is your best friend in these situations.

Hope this makes sense.

Have fun.

Another possibility.
The DMT will retain its shape whereas the King will not. If you spent a lot of time on the King did you keep it lapped flat ?

Also, the edge follows the spine. Adding tape will not correct spine issues.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Some food for thought.

Many times bevel setting can be more problematic that just finding the appropriate stone. One thing that should be kept in mind is that you need to see that the bevel goes all the way from the top to the edge regardless of how much uneven wear there may be on both sides of the razor. This is really important to watch out for when you are working on a razor that has uneven flattening on the spine (tell tale) that is not the same on both sides.

I have spent hours on bevels and thought I had them only to be fooled at the end of a honing process when I examined the blade under the microscope. Depending on the wear itself or who may have messed with the razor before you, it is not uncommon for one side of the bevel to take and yet the other side is not completely there. If you look at the bevel under a loupe or microscope when you are honing, you can see this readily. When this happens, I will do circles on the side where the bevel is incomplete until I see that the stone I am using has done it's job on that side. Once this is accomplished, you can go back to X strokes on both sides and you should find that your bevels will be much better. It really doesn't matter whether you are using a DMT, 220, or 1K depending on how aggressive you want or need to be, but it is critical that the wear be even from the top of the bevel to the edge on both sides. The microscope or loupe is your best friend in these situations.

Hope this makes sense.

Have fun.

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You know, this is sheds some new light for me, thank you Lynn.

I've approached the razors I have worked assuming I had to keep the number of strokes/circles the same. I overlooked that one might intentionally spend more time on one side or section of the blade than another. Case in point.. though this particular blade's challenge was predominantly in the center on the back side, it also has a shallower bevel on at the toe on that side. I didn't attempt to even that bevel out. I assumed that since it was indeed making it to the edge, confirmed by the sharpie test, that it didn't matter if it were even toe to heel.

I'm not sure I understand WHY it needs to be even, but I now see that it should be.

Interesting that the spine wear is the same front and back, toe to heel. Not sure how that happens. Maybe a twist in the blade that the naked or untrained eye can't detect? I'll pay more attention at how the spine is worn, not just whether it is or not. Thanks Lynn!!

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Another possibility.
The DMT will retain its shape whereas the King will not. If you spent a lot of time on the King did you keep it lapped flat ?

Also, the edge follows the spine. Adding tape will not correct spine issues.

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I'm pretty anal about checking the flatness before and after, so I'll say yes, it's flat.

I understand your comment on the edge following the spine. As Lynn said, if the spine wear is biased to either end and you add tape, it will change the bevel angle, but it's not going to correct the bias.

All good stuff folks.. Thanks!!