Jnats for noobs

Hello I was thinking a post like this may help some guys have some guidance as to what to start out with if they want to start using Jnats. I know theres a uniqueness on all of them but they should have similar enough characteristics to help some one out. I would recommend buying from a seller who has a reputation and who offers at least an exchange if it doesn't work out for you. Anyway my picks are shuobodani for ease of use and being capable of a very keen edge quickly, and an ozaiki suita for being versatile enough to give you a coti like edge up to Escher+ sharpness. Im taking a chance on the post as some may not like my picks, but this may be useful and give guidance to some folks out there. Oh and an asano nagura set definitely. What say you? Thanks.

I think noobs should realise that a Jnat is not a miracle hone. It only works on a really keen edge coming off a polishing hone in the 8-12K range.

Thats one way of using them, although a nagura setup is very effective also.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

... I would recommend buying from a seller who has a reputation and who offers at least an exchange if it doesn't work out for you...

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Ok for reputation, but the seller will not take it back after you used it long enough to realize that ...:shrug:

I would recommend:
Be aware that it takes longer than with any other coticule or escher stone
Be aware that not every jnat is for every steel:banghead:
Do not start with extra hard stone
and ...
Relax, it's a long and expensive journey:gl:
Keep your nani12k at hand:rofl2:

Jnats for noobs?
The stone has to be lvl 4.5-5 at most, too hard stones can be tricky to use so not for noobs.
As far as mine of origin, that is not important as long as the stone is truly for razor.
Naguras are a good thing to try, they are not too expensive except Koma (which is not really necessary)
Good tomonagura is also nice to have.

The names of mines & other terms are no guarantee of quality or consistency. They are not company/model/type names of industrially produced products, like cars or computers.

When buying Jnats you need an honest & knowledgeable seller with a return policy. Of course you should also be able to determine the stone's suitability in a reasonable time for a return. It can take time to learn the versatility of a Jnat but it's easy to tell if the stone improves your 8 or 12k stone.
Best not to buy a Ferrari till you know how to drive. :)

Yes sir you are right, but they have to start somewhere! I wouldn't suggest a Jnat or other natural for someone who doesn't know how to hone, unless their next door neighbor is proficient or someone would be willing to work with them for a bit. I think its a great hobby and some people are afraid to try one. Its work but its a great way to hone a razor. Just trying to get the word out that its not mystical and anyone with basic honing skills can be proficient in time. I appreciate the responses here.

It is great that you have found natural Jnat stones that work for you. But I would not recommend any naturals for anyone learning to hone. There are enough challenges honing vintage razors with known/proven synthetic stone without adding the unknown variables of a natural stone.

One has only to look at the raft of post from novice honers with Coticules and their frustrations. Just purchasing a Jnat can be a confusing, confounding and costly let alone learning to use the stone and squeak out the maximum performance.

Most novice honers are also novice shavers and even if they got lucky and were able to obtain a shaveable edge, it is questionable if they could recognize, appreciate and maintain it.

As has been said many times, learn to shave, learn to maintain, learn to touch up, then learn to hone… on synthetics. Then learn to restore challenging Vintage razors, then open up your wallet to the naturals. It is rare that most will find an edge better than a 12K Super Stone.

I am always amuses by the endless honing problems of novice honers, 90 percent of which are the lack of a set bevel and the ability to recognize so.

In short I would not recommend a Jnat or any natural hone to a novice honer.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

...Most novice honers are also novice shavers and even if they got lucky and were able to obtain a shaveable edge, it is questionable if they could recognize, appreciate and maintain it.

As has been said many times, learn to shave, learn to maintain, learn to touch up, then learn to hone… on synthetics. Then learn to restore challenging Vintage razors, then open up your wallet to the naturals. It is rare that most will find an edge better than a 12K Super Stone.

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I respectfully disagree in part.. If you said 'Many novice honers are also novice shaver...' I would feel better. I know I prefer the edge from a natural stone over the crispier, often too sharp feeling from the high grit synths. And the whole discussion of which is 'better' is a deep dive. 'Better' comes down to how it feels.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I am always amuses by the endless honing problems of novice honers, 90 percent of which are the lack of a set bevel and the ability to recognize so.

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I absolutely agree with the importance of the bevel set, as well as how elusive it can be. Or possibly better said, how impatient a new honer can be when seeking a bevel evenly set across the blade. It's easy to want to force a bevel to pass tests so you can move on to the more glamorous stones.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

In short I would not recommend a Jnat or any natural hone to a novice honer.

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Well, I can only speak for myself... There are no joys in the synthetic stones. I've got them. I don't like them. Others may deem them easiest, best, hard to beat.. I get it. Easiest isn't always the best way to go. I don't like easy. Maybe if you're honing a gojillion razors a day and need to be efficient in pushing volume..then it's a utilitarian decision. And I'll agree, there are many who like that crisp scalpel sharp, shiny edge from a 16k. But otherwise I feel you go with what gives you the most enjoyment. I am willing to take the long road. There is something purely romantic about the natural stones. The history. The feel in your hand. The lack of stands, diamond plates, tubs of water... The smell of the natural stone and it's slurry. The drip of water from your fingertips for dilution. The mellow edge that comes off these stones. All are reasons to use the natural stones. I'm sure I missed a bunch.

Yes, trust that I know it's harder to learn. I have shouting matches with my coti. And, I swear I hear the Norton chuckling at me. I don't yell at the Zulu because it's big.. and bad ass. The J-Nat sits quietly in it's box.. silent like a ninja. It scares me. But I'll learn all of them in time.

Frankly, I don't see the synthetic stones as easier. They are boring to me. Mathematical. Too tightly systematized for me. If my honing had to be solely on synthetics.. I wouldn't. I would send them out rather than hone solely on synthetics. There is no romance. They work perfectly well, but scream the chants of our mechanized, disposable world. No charm.

My DE shaves are FAR closer, faster and, dare I say better, than my straight shaves. That's not to say my straight shaves aren't BBS smooth they are. They just aren't as easy as the DE. Easy is, to me, boring. Thee is a place for easy, but only occasionally for me. There is romance and challenge in the straight shave that is absent in the DE shave.

When I learned to drive I did it on a manual trans. That added a whole lot of variables that might be extraneous and confusing for today's new drivers with automatics or paddle shifters. But that was how we did it. There are countless generations that had nothing but natural stones to learn on. It's how they did it.

So... to the OP.. I hope this thread grows over time to include thoughts on mastering the J-Nat. No question, it is complex and loaded with challenges.

Most of all, I hope this thread sprouts encouragement.

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

My DE shaves are FAR closer, faster and, dare I say better, than my straight shaves. That's not to say my straight shaves aren't BBS smooth they are. They just aren't as easy as the DE. Easy is, to me, boring. Thee is a place for easy, but only occasionally for me. There is romance and challenge in the straight shave that is absent in the DE shave.

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In all honesty i agree 100% with Euclid on this topic, i just hate to see a new honer spend a small fortune on a j-nat when they have no sense on how to set a bevel or what a shave ready edge feel like.

And also not to "rain on your parade" but if your DE shaves are closer then your straights, then either your edges or technique are not up to par. Just recently was reading a thread about this and pretty much all experienced shavers totally agreed that the straight was much closer then the DE and its my experience as well.

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Originally Posted by Martin103

In all honesty i agree 100% with Euclid on this topic, i just hate to see a new honer spend a small fortune on a j-nat when they have no sense on how to set a bevel or what a shave ready edge feel like.

And also not to "rain on your parade" but if your DE shaves are closer then your straights, then either your edges or technique are not up to par. Just recently was reading a thread about this and pretty much all experienced shavers totally agreed that the straigh was much closer then the DE and its my experience as well.

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Thanks for the feedback... I really appreciate it. Though, I guess I am an outlier in some respects.

I do know what a shave ready edge feels like. It's glorious. I have edges prepared on Naniwa 12k, J-Nats and Coti's.. all done by professinals. I prefer the natural edge. And, I do know how to set a bevel, as well as its importance.

I don't think you're raining on my parade. Clearly, I don't have the level of expertise that many others have with straight razors. I wouldn't dare be so arrogant as to think otherwise. I've been using a DE for ages. After trying many different combinations of razors and blades, I found the Holy Grail DE. That's when the challenge and fun went out of my DE shaves. They became repeatable and flawless. Haven't gotten to that point with the straight yet, but that's part of the attraction and romance, and it will come.

My edges.. nearly all are professionally done. Can't lay blame there. Technique? Sure it could use improvement. Most folks can. What I find is that my face favors the DE in certain spots and straight in others. Both can give me a BBS (I think I said that). The DE hits a few patches in my beard map that I can't get to efficiently with the straight. And the straight hits other spots with more efficiency than the DE. Every persons face is different and DEs and Straights favor different parts of my face and are not nearly as quick and effortless as the DE. There is no right or wrong about it. But I can't lie, your words make me feel different. Not sure why that is, or whether it's intentional.

Either way, the point of sharing my thoughts was simply to support the OP. That's all.

I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones? Sometimes it okay to just say.. I don't agree, but I wish you luck none-the-less.

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I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones?

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Aha! Finally a question I can answer in this thread! Imagine for a moment, that you receive phone calls, text messages, and emails all day everyday from ten new SR shavers, trying to use their newest ultra rare luxury import stone. They want you to tell them how best to use it. Now imagine the same ten guys who instead, bought synthetics. The questions, in both cases, will be the same. But the answers are only worth something if you are in the latter group. If in the former, the true answer is, "I dont have a clue...sorry buddy." Cause your stone ain't my stone, even if they both came from the same old mountain in Kyoto. But if you've got a Norton, well hell...I can help ya! I got a Norton too, and by gum, it's just exactly the same in every way as yours. :)

Irrespective of that, I love natural stones too. And I love them for all the same reasons as most. And I hate them for all the same reasons as well. The OP made it clear that he would expect the noob learning japanese naturals to have a basic understanding of honing prior to making this jump. So maybe a more proper title for the thread would be "The Novice Guide to Proven Applied Principles of Advanced Honing using Japanese Natural Stones." But then really, how many of us would have even opened it up? Sounds a bit stuffy, no?

So, to get back to the point, if there's something new to know about honing with japanese naturals that hasn't been covered in other threads, I'd love to read about it. But, I think it's all here already. Experience is the best teacher btw. If you've got the dough, and the time, I say go buy some. Have fun. I once asked Randydance about making razors and knives. He gave the best advice ever I think. He said, well if you wanna learn, go buy some steel, and start grinding. So, I'll steal that nugget and say, If you wanna learn Japanese naturals, go buy some, and start honing. With the addendum that every minute we spend online is another minute we didn't spend practicing. And practice is what it's all about in the end.

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

Thanks for the feedback... I really appreciate it. Though, I guess I am an outlier in some respects.

I do know what a shave ready edge feels like. It's glorious. I have edges prepared on Naniwa 12k, J-Nats and Coti's.. all done by professinals. I prefer the natural edge. And, I do know how to set a bevel, as well as its importance.

I don't think you're raining on my parade. Clearly, I don't have the level of expertise that many others have with straight razors. I wouldn't dare be so arrogant as to think otherwise. I've been using a DE for ages. After trying many different combinations of razors and blades, I found the Holy Grail DE. That's when the challenge and fun went out of my DE shaves. They became repeatable and flawless. Haven't gotten to that point with the straight yet, but that's part of the attraction and romance, and it will come.

My edges.. nearly all are professionally done. Can't lay blame there. Technique? Sure it could use improvement. Most folks can. What I find is that my face favors the DE in certain spots and straight in others. Both can give me a BBS (I think I said that). The DE hits a few patches in my beard map that I can't get to efficiently with the straight. And the straight hits other spots with more efficiency than the DE. Every persons face is different and DEs and Straights favor different parts of my face and are not nearly as quick and effortless as the DE. There is no right or wrong about it. But I can't lie, your words make me feel different. Not sure why that is, or whether it's intentional.

Either way, the point of sharing my thoughts was simply to support the OP. That's all.

I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones? Sometimes it okay to just say.. I don't agree, but I wish you luck none-the-less.

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So after your get consistent bbs straight shaves, what next on your agenda mike? Honing up the fender of your car and having a go at it at 80 MPH on the 135? Reckless! Lmao!

I agree nat edges are my preference too. A smooth nat edge is like driving to the beach, some times it's nice to take your time, feel the wind in your hair and breath the ocean air. In feeling poetic in this new year. :-)

I say this, because I learned on natural stones, Arks. In those days there was no internet, no video and no shaving suppliers open to the public.

You bought you razor and stones from the barber or a gun show. He was also the only source of instruction or another straight shaver of which there were few. I am sure many gave up and bought a Bic.

I did take my razors back to him to be honed and watched, intently before I figured it out.

Can it be done? Sure…

A novice needs to learn to hone first and do so in the easiest way that will teach how to obtain a shaveable edge.
Set yourself up for success… But it is your dime and you can do as you wish, Lord knows, many have traveled that road…and given up.

I am reminded of a recent thread were even with good synthetic stones and many good people trying to help…

Natural stones are a challenge, but there are plenty of resources to help people get started. It never ends though as I believe you will always achieve better. False information is an obstacle though as many who have never used them have always expressed their unfounded fears that it cant be done. Or why use a Jnat when you have a naniwa 12? Nothing wrong with a naniwa 12, but its a different sharp ,smoothness and shave. Worth striving for IMO. But only if you want to.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Natural stones are a challenge, but there are plenty of resources to help people get started. It never ends though as I believe you will always achieve better. False information is an obstacle though as many who have never used them have always expressed their unfounded fears that it cant be done. Or why use a Jnat when you have a naniwa 12? Nothing wrong with a naniwa 12, but its a different sharp ,smoothness and shave. Worth striving for IMO. But only if you want to.

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All good sir... A healthy exchange for all of us.

Nothing wrong with a Naniwa 12k. Nothing wrong with processed grains, kidney beans and empty carbs, if that's what you diet and palette dictates.. Not my thing though and I wouldn't think of trying to change your mind regardless of how bad I think these things are for you. Again, I am in the minority, I know.

Every one has something that motivates them and makes them happy and excited to see tomorrow.

Hopefully this thread gets back on track and I apologize if I took it on a detour, but I was excited by your initial post and hope it would grow into something useful for all who want the challenge of learning and mastering the zen of the natural stones.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Can it be done? Sure…

A novice needs to learn to hone first and do so in the easiest way that will teach how to obtain a shaveable edge.
Set yourself up for success… But it is your dime and you can do as you wish, Lord knows, many have traveled that road…and given up.

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And a few must have succeeded along the way... You did. And you had less resources available than we do now.

That's all I'm saying..

"Dude...go ahead and learn on the naturals..it's a tough road and you won't get a whole lot of help given how different all the stones are.. But go for it and good luck."

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

......"I dont have a clue...sorry buddy."

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Well, that's almost the same as "I don't agree with you, but good luck anyway". I can be okay with that.

The missing link is that there are likely many gents among us who have mastered, and prefer, the J-Nats. Granted, they are outnumbered by the Synth-Heads (said with all due respect and a sprinkling of humor). Where are the J-Nat guys hanging out? I want to hang with them.

Even if you are shooting pool, when I am playing billiards, we are both playing on a rectangular table and our goal is to use the same pool cue, angles and ball control to win. That's what I extracted from the OP's intent for the post. Let's take all that we know and dump it one place to help the new guy get started.

But I get the feeling if your table has pockets, the commonalities of cue, angles and ball control never come into consideration by the guys playing with just three cushions.

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Originally Posted by JoeLowett

So after your get consistent bbs straight shaves, what next on your agenda mike? Honing up the fender of your car and having a go at it at 80 MPH on the 135? Reckless! Lmao!

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Ah Joe, my friend... I'll have to go find something other honing a fender.. I drive a Jeep...I don't have fenders.

Happy New Year to you and your family!

Sorry I goofed up all the quotes... iPad is not the best tool for multi-quotes.

Mike,

I am not saying don't, or that synthetic stone are better than naturals.

I am saying for the novice learning to hone, an inexpensive, repeatable, known, reliable, practically bullet proof synthetic stone will teach a novice how to get a repeatable, shaveable edge.

From there go in any direction you wish.

We are not anti-natural stones, hell most of us would grind them up and inject them if we thought we could get a better edge. I have well over a hundred naturals and still collecting. Rare is the stone that can improve a 12k edge, though I have a few and they are fun to use. And as you say some of those edges are special.

I also have several synthetics from a variety of makers, a cabinet of paste and strops and film. There is no, one road to a keen edge.
Most novices have a simple agenda, make my razor shave. The quickest route is the interstate… a synthetic, by no means the only way.

Enjoy the road.

1. Choose a hard stone, and only use it for finishing, while you learn to sharpen your razor with synths.
2. Don't buy one of those 1400 dollar stones off ebay.
3. Expect that you're gonna buy some duds, while you look for the one or several that will fulfill the duties of a properly ordered synth progression.
4. Read everything Jim's written here. Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated. | Eastern Smooth: The Blog
5. Be sure and read the manuscript written by Iwasaki, and translated by Jim called Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.
6. Recognize that if your slurry feels gritty, the stone is a paperweight...Get rid of it now...Preferably make it into dust, so that nobody else has to deal with it again.
7. Progressive slurry dilutions still work, but Japanese natural slurry will break down into finer and yet finer component parts while honing, unlike coticule stone.
8. Number 7 doesn't mean you won't have to dilute, because you are still dealing with steel particles, that IMO, oughta be cleared from the stone regularly. But it gets real hairy here because your stone is unique to itself. No other person can really advise you specifically, unless you let them use your stone for awhile.
9. After you've spent 3 hours setting your bevel, go ahead and set your bevel again a few more times, cause it's probably not done yet.
10. Number nine actually is universal.
11. Never give up.
12. Never give up.
13. Never, ever give up.
14. One stone, and several different slurry stones, is an option with jnats.
15. If it were me, I'd find out who Mainaman buys from, and buy from them also.
16. Aframestokyo has some nice looking pieces.

I tried harder to stick with the topic this time. Wow, that's way harder than I imagined. :p

If nothing else, read Iwasakis manuscript a few times.

And yes, you quoted me out of context, which completely changes the meaning. The primary point is that naturals are unique to themselves. But, yes, best of luck. Agreement or disagreement was never my intent. :)

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

1. Choose a hard stone, and only use it for finishing, while you learn to sharpen your razor with synths.
2. Don't buy one of those 1400 dollar stones off ebay.
3. Expect that you're gonna buy some duds, while you look for the one or several that will fulfill the duties of a properly ordered synth progression.
4. Read everything Jim's written here. Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated. | Eastern Smooth: The Blog
5. Be sure and read the manuscript written by Iwasaki, and translated by Jim called Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.
6. Recognize that if your slurry feels gritty, the stone is a paperweight...Get rid of it now...Preferably make it into dust, so that nobody else has to deal with it again.
7. Progressive slurry dilutions still work, but Japanese natural slurry will break down into finer and yet finer component parts while honing, unlike coticule stone.
8. Number 7 doesn't mean you won't have to dilute, because you are still dealing with steel particles, that IMO, oughta be cleared from the stone regularly. But it gets real hairy here because your stone is unique to itself. No other person can really advise you specifically, unless you let them use your stone for awhile.
9. After you've spent 3 hours setting your bevel, go ahead and set your bevel again a few more times, cause it's probably not done yet.
10. Number nine actually is universal.
11. Never give up.
12. Never give up.
13. Never, ever give up.
14. One stone, and several different slurry stones, is an option with jnats.
15. If it were me, I'd find out who Mainaman buys from, and buy from them also.
16. Aframestokyo has some nice looking pieces.

I tried harder to stick with the topic this time. Wow, that's way harder than I imagined. :p

If nothing else, read Iwasakis manuscript a few times.

And yes, you quoted me out of context, which completely changes the meaning. The primary point is that naturals are unique to themselves. But, yes, best of luck. Agreement or disagreement was never my intent. :)

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Now THAT is a good read... thank you!

Yeah, the -quote-excerpts can be dangerous.. I try to be very careful with that. But the full quotes can get equally hairy.

Fortunately, it looks like I am heading in the right direction. I am sticking to my plan to use the synth for bevel set for sure and then up to 8k for now, and slowly introduce the naturals earlier and earlier until the 4/8 is out of the picture. No way I am ready to set bevels with the J-Nat or Coti. I don't have that much time.

The Shuobudan 100 seemed like a good place to start. Looking for a set of Nagura now and have watched Mainaman's Nagura Honing videos a gojillion times. And I've read all that I can find on Eastern Smooth.. good stuff.

Points 9 & 10.. should be sticky posts, each by them self.

The Iwasaki manuscript.. I haven't read it yet. I have a few days of and it will make good reading. Thank you. I've found a lot of mention to Hamono no Mikata(How to appreciate a blade)? Which I think is also by Iwasaki. I haven't come across the full transcript.. Is that the same document?

I have a few things I share with my daughter as she is maturing (she's still just 10 years old, but I figure by the time she is an adult she will have heard these snippets enough times that she might remember at one or two).

It's okay to struggle... but never, ever give up

Never a mistake, always a lesson.

I believe both of these thoughts are highly appropriate to share here.

Happy New Year to all of you!!

I don't know. I always recommend new guys become more than proficient with synthetics before traveling down the natural road, Especially Jnats. Unless your a Geologist. You need to walk, before you can run. Way too many variables with Jnats, Too many counterfeit stones, and don't get me started on the vendors. I could tell you stories that would steer you clear from Jnats forever, and I'm talking about reputable vendors. Just be careful. That's all I'm saying. Everyone's nice in email when they're trying to sell you something. Don't be Naïve. Make sure you can return the stone, and find out under what conditions. Many vendors will not take back a lapped stone. Also, unless your a dealer or a serious collector, A $3000.00 stone does not equal a $3000.00 shave. Know what your buying. Always use Paypal.

Unless you grew up with they guy your taking a chance. How many guys bought bad stones and didn't send them back because they thought it was them? or perhaps the razor? They set it aside, buy something else and forget about it. Before you know it, a year has gone buy and your stuck with a paperweight. Buying up Jnats like they're MRE's and we're on the verge of the Zombie apocalypse is not the way. I've seen guys on here buying 1/2 a dozen of them at a time. I'm not sure what that's about. You should take your time to learn your stone, especially a natural.

I use the Shapton GS series up to 16k, followed by the Suehiro 20k. It's an awesome shave, period. Just pick a set of stones, and master them. You'll be very, very happy with the results. I do own and use Jnats. I like my Nakayama Maruichi Asagi, and my Nakayama Maruka Asagi. The Shoubudani Asagi and Ozuku are fine too. My Maruka and Maruichi came from Japan from a trusted source. They love hard steel.

I agree with RegulaJoe's, # 15 above. Exercise Caution....And...(Edit....Sorry...!)

Happy New Year....

:OT

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The Iwasaki manuscript.. I haven't read it yet. I have a few days of and it will make good reading. Thank you. I've found a lot of mention to Hamono no Mikata(How to appreciate a blade)? Which I think is also by Iwasaki. I haven't come across the full transcript.. Is that the same document?

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Not the same document. Hamono no Mikata is a book written by the father of Shigeyoshi Iwasaki. Shigeyoshi Iwasaki wrote Honing Razors and Nihon Kamisori, which is free on Jim's blog. It's been so long since I've been to Jim's blog, I didn't even know about Hamono no Mikata until about two minutes ago. According to Jim, it's a pricey book. If you find that puppy for free somewhere let me know! :OT

These things (threads) go sideways so easily don't they? Ha!

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

1. Choose a hard stone, and only use it for finishing, while you learn to sharpen your razor with synths.
.....
6. Recognize that if your slurry feels gritty, the stone is a paperweight...Get rid of it now...Preferably make it into dust, so that nobody else has to deal with it again.

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1. I wouldn't recommend a hard stone as a beginners stone, they can be very hard to use, a softer jnat can give a very nice edge without all the trouble.

6. Most people I've helped that gets "gritty" slurry just don't take the time to raise it slowly, on a hard stone it can take several minutes
and they can be picky when it comes to tomo naguras, some combinations just don't work.
Even with a stone I know and have used for years it happens I get something "bad" in the slurry, rinse and repeat.
If you still feel it's a "paperweight" send me a PM, lots off papers flying around here when the cats are racing around!

Good for you mike! like u I'm scared of those Jnats.. Too many variables for me... Bill came to my house not to long ago with a crate of hones.. I'm learning on what I have.. All synthetics.. So I tell bill I really love the feel of a jnat finish there is nothing like it in my opinion.. And I have had pro honers finish my razors on all sort of hones.. So bill is watching me everything going great get to my Naniwa 12 k bill says everything look great.. So I say now what.. He breaks out this suehiro 20 k says try this .. I goto work .. Next day I shave I was taking back best shave ever.. Guess what I'm a simple guy loved the shave figured out how to use it, yes one razor no not a pro yet but i decided that's the path I'm taking .. Point of this is whatever path u take I hope u find what works the best and most comfortable for you..


Happy new yr to you and your family.. Excuse the typos iPad..