Back honing

[Steel]

Is there any down sides to back honing a few times on a higher gritstone? Any advantages to it? People will back hone (sorta) on pasted strops or balsa. Why not on a higher grit stone. Wouldn't it help "shape and mould" the edge better.

Obviously lay I need help. Lol.

[Geezer]

I do not know of any advantage to back honing. I do know that some persons were taught to hone that way.

For some stones, back honing is a way to cause a wire edge in a hurry.

Use of a pasted strop of whatever material almost requires back honing / spine leading strokes to prevent damage to the edge or strop or both.

All that said, I do think there are times that persons honing will use a back stroke, or circles, or ellipses, to achieve a certain effect on the edge of a razor. Also, they probably know in advance what they are trying to accomplish and how to do it.
Just my take on the subject.
~Richard

[JazzWillie]

I'm not a pro at honing what so ever, but my brother-in-law is a metallurgist at Northern Illinois University and I've posed a few questions to him that pertain to honing and steel make up. One of our conversations had to do with something of this nature. He said basically if you are drawing an abrasive plane across a piece of metal that the bur will always form if two planes of surface form a point and the abrasion is being pulled away from the point (in a back hone stroke). What he said is happening is the material from the thicker side of the plane is sliding across the stone toward the thinner point and forcing it upward. When you give it a traditional honing stroke you force it back onto it self and actually make more work for yourself. What would happen is if you kept the blade on the same side or flipped it you would be leaving bigger pieces of metal on the stone that could damage the blade and the nature of cutting the bur off can serrate the edge ever so slightly. Kind of like when you bend a piece of sheet metal repeatedly and it snaps. It never breaks off smoothly, its always jagged. Then he said that if the stone were course enough that you might not even know it happened but on a high grit stone you might be scoring it, because the high grit stone particles are so much smaller than lower grit stones they wont take the bur off as quickly, and these score lines would result in raised areas in the blade which would cause further damage to the stone. One thing he said is this is all relative to the type and hardness of the metal.

[Geezer]

JazzWillie, That is the best definition of wire edge forming and destruction that I have seen! Thank you! That also explains some of the micro-chipping when using circles on some man made stones.
~Richard

[Steel]

I'm not a pro at honing what so ever, but my brother-in-law is a metallurgist at Northern Illinois University and I've posed a few questions to him that pertain to honing and steel make up. One of our conversations had to do with something of this nature. He said basically if you are drawing an abrasive plane across a piece of metal that the bur will always form if two planes of surface form a point and the abrasion is being pulled away from the point (in a back hone stroke). What he said is happening is the material from the thicker side of the plane is sliding across the stone toward the thinner point and forcing it upward. When you give it a traditional honing stroke you force it back onto it self and actually make more work for yourself. What would happen is if you kept the blade on the same side or flipped it you would be leaving bigger pieces of metal on the stone that could damage the blade and the nature of cutting the bur off can serrate the edge ever so slightly. Kind of like when you bend a piece of sheet metal repeatedly and it snaps. It never breaks off smoothly, its always jagged. Then he said that if the stone were course enough that you might not even know it happened but on a high grit stone you might be scoring it, because the high grit stone particles are so much smaller than lower grit stones they wont take the bur off as quickly, and these score lines would result in raised areas in the blade which would cause further damage to the stone. One thing he said is this is all relative to the type and hardness of the metal.

Thanks for such a descriptive and technical answer. So ...... Back honing can form a wire edge? Is this what we are doing with pastes then? I'm a little confused. Lynn says that over honing can create a wire edge and back honing can correct this.

So in the end...never back hone unless you already have a wire edge? Stay forward honing on stones to counter the damage or rounding or wire edge that pastes create?

[wynndow]

When you back hone to get rid of the wire edge, you have to drop down a grit size. Which I would imagine that pulls the edge off then you have to smooth it back out using a higher grit. It's a little different.

[Steel]

When you back hone to get rid of the wire edge, you have to drop down a grit size. Which I would imagine that pulls the edge off then you have to smooth it back out using a higher grit. It's a little different.

Do if you get a wire edge back honing with pastes then dripping down to a finishing hone and back honing on that will get rid of it? Correct? Or am I missing something as usual? Lol

[gssixgun]

Sorry this conversation just makes me smile...

Much of this has to do with Grit and Pressure..

Some of us have experimented with Very High Grit stones and "Stropping Strokes" (spine leading) and there is some good edges to be found with trying it, I do a system using 3-2-1 or 3-2-2 as a finishing routine on the Shapton 30k which is 3 Edge leading 2 Spine leading and 1 or 2 Edge leading to finish and it works rather well..

In the middle grit arena say 2k-7k you have to be pretty careful to not "Draw" out a harsh edge or burr using Spine leading strokes

At the lower Bevel setting grits It is pretty easy to Draw out a burr using Spine leading, but if you combine it into a Circle or a Back and Forth or Japanese honing then it is pretty effective at removing metal, but pretty much every Straight Razor honer is going to finish that up with Edge leading strokes to reform the edge they way they want...

Trying to compare Pasted stropping and Honing on a Stone is just doesn't work these are two different processes..


If you search back in the old posts here on SRP you will find recommendations for Fixing an overhoned edge by using Spine leading strokes then a few edge leading to break off the burr.. Never been a fan of that system myself but it is there..
For a rough edge I simply do a few TNT's or a couple of very light strokes across the corner of the 1k and I am good to go back to Edge leading and finishing the bevel.. Try all the systems and figure what works best for you..

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention, unless you are very very careful this is also a good way to create a frown

[Steel]

Sorry this conversation just makes me smile...

I am a newb. What can I say

Much of this has to do with Grit and Pressure..

Some of us have experimented with Very High Grit stones and "Stropping Strokes" (spine leading) and there is some good edges to be found with trying it, I do a system using 3-2-1 or 3-2-2 as a finishing routine on the Shapton 30k which is 3 Edge leading 2 Spine leading and 1 or 2 Edge leading to finish and it works rather well..

Sounds like something I will try next time. Thanks. A big help and encouragement.

In the middle grit arena say 2k-7k you have to be pretty careful to not "Draw" out a harsh edge or burr using Spine leading strokes.

Yup. Just looking at a higher grit finisher like a guangxi stone.

At the lower Bevel setting grits It is pretty easy to Draw out a burr using Spine leading, but if you combine it into a Circle or a Back and Forth or Japanese honing then it is pretty effective at removing metal, but pretty much every Straight Razor honer is going to finish that up with Edge leading strokes to reform the edge they way they want...

Trying to compare Pasted stropping and Honing on a Stone is just doesn't work these are two different processes..


If you search back in the old posts here on SRP you will find recommendations for Fixing an overhoned edge by using Spine leading strokes then a few edge leading to break off the burr.. Never been a fan of that system myself but it is there..

I saw those. How does this differ from what you do with a 3-2-2?

For a rough edge I simply do a few TNT's or a couple of very light strokes across the corner of the 1k and I am good to go back to Edge leading and finishing the bevel.. Try all the systems and figure what works best for you..

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention, unless you are very very careful this is also a good way to create a frown

What is a good way to create a frown? Higher stones 3-2-2 or lower stones spine leading stroke? Or something else?

[gssixgun]

What is a good way to create a frown? Higher stones 3-2-2 or lower stones spine leading stroke? Or something else?

lower stones spine leading stroke? Yes,


The finishing systems are very light finishing strokes on a 30k stone they take off such little steel it isn't worth discussing..