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I have both combination (Yellow + Blue) and there is a big difference in the Yellow stones - the looks, the feel when lapping. Not so sure in the way they hone yet... The older stone is much less speckled, more consistent color and I think it is softer, which I hear from Tony is better...
On the other hand, the Blue stones seem almost identical.
I am wondering what others have experienced.
Cheers
Ivo
There's a great deal of variation in Belgians, even between stones from the same quarry, quarried the same day.
I have 1 combo stone, 1 yellow with slate, and 2 lapping stones.
The 2 lapping stones come from the same box in the store. 1 creates a beautiful white slurry that is great for polishing and honing. the other lapping stone doesn't do much except raising a faint slurry from the hone.
Even though they come from the same place and the same time, there's a huge difference.
That being said, in ye olden age, Belgians were not yet so scarce, and the average stone was of higher quality because they simply didn't sell the mediocre stuff. Or at least not for barbers use.
These days the yellow is becoming rarer, and they sell everything they can if they can get away with it.
The store I bought mine had a number of yellows that had a few 0.5 cm blue veins coming out of the surface :D . According to the proprietor, that didn't matter. :nono:
Hey Bruno,
I was just curious. are you of the vintage variety or the current variety of belgian?
:rolleyes::D:roflmao:roflmao
Somewhere in between.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
I am not 18 anymore (If only I could be 18 again, but with my current knowledge and experience. Youth is totally misspent on the young.).
I don't have hair growing out of my ears yet, so I am not that old either.
:D
Ah well, if you must know: 30, married, 1 daughter, 1 baby on the way.
Not yet as vintage as some of our other members I'm sure.
Though I might be the oldest Belgian around here. The only other one that I know of is Harold, and I thought he was younger than me.
So that would make me the Elder Belgian :hmmm:
Maybe I am a bit vintage after all. I am certainly old enough to grump about how the kids are spoiled these days.
I had to shave while walking through the snow on my bare feet, going uphill both ways. And I only had a 2 bladed gilette. And I was thankful for it. :rant: :D
My "softer" comment on stones was directed at Eschers and Thuringens supposedly being more desirable if softer. Recent tests between my vintage NOS Thuringens and the darl and harder Eifel/ Hunsrueck versions don't show and significant difference between harder and softer other than the harder stone cuts faster.
I don't think harder vs. sodter has the same effect on Belgians.
Maybe Howard could comment better on this one.
Tony
I apologize for spreading confusion connected with Tony!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
Actually I remember that Tony's comment was for Eschers but concluded by myself that if this is true for Eschers, it's probably true for Belgians, since both seem desired by rabbis and have, more or less (in my experience - more) similar results to begin with.
I tried the vintage Yellow on an already shave-ready Genco and I *think* the edge actually improved. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the stone is better, it may just be that the extra several vintage laps brought the edge to its full potential, which wasn't reached before on the other hone (although the other hone still produced a comfortable shave-ready edge).
Cheers
Ivo
I remember hearing about all vintage v. new stones after I spent a bomb on a new 8x3. :) I looked into it a little, and from what I could tell (and I might be wrong), it's not that new coticules have on average a different grit or consistency from the old ones. It's just that as the source dries up, quality control has become a little hit and miss, so some newly quarried coticules have occlusions, or veins that constitute more than a merely cosmetic feature, blue bits mixed in with the yellow, etc. – things that can result in defective performance. But: as far as I understand, if you have a new coticule with no such defects, and it's giving you consistent edges, you don't have to worry that it would somehow suffer in comparison to the vintage article. The stone itself isn't "newer" because it was quarried more recently.
If on the other hand you have a new coticule that's producing weird or unsatisfactory results, you should have an expert look at it, and then determine if it's necessary (and possible) to return it to the dealer.
Would be curious to hear from Howard, Lynn, Tony, Randy et al if this is more or less accurate.
Well, my natural from Howard gives me great results, I am very satisfied with it. I was just surprised to see such a difference with the vintage Yellow stone so was trying to learn more. BTW, I saw Padron (Neale's) stone from Howard - it looks like mine, and he says it's vintage - so it may well be that I have 2 vintage stones.
There must be a good reason why the rabbis go for the vintage stones and pass on the current production. I am not saying that a current stone is worse - because I really do not know. It may be worse, it may be much better. Tony already talked about natural variation...
Anyway, my stones are different. They *may* also be different ages. After all - they didn't form at the same instant (but not sure what the timeframe is). All I know: one feels softer, and has a more solid color; the other is speckled. Since we know some Eschers are more valuable than others because they are supposedly better, I wanted to learn if there is something similar with Belgians.
Cheers
Ivo
I also have a small vintage belgian, and yes the appearance is quite different from the new one. It's a solid mustard color. The newer one is speckled and lighter, the color of a chunk of italian parmesan. I haven't noticed a difference in performance, but then I'm not a good enough honer to bring out the full potential of either of these.
Are there no vintage stones with speckles? Lynn once told me he has no problem with speckles but looks askance at veins.
Howard told me the color of the vintage ones is darker in part because they used to use oil on them.
As for the softness, I wonder. My vintage also felt "soft" – the way marble feels soft. I think it might have sometime to do with years of use and handling. If they indeed used oil then that could add to it. After I gave it a good lapping I don't notice this difference as much.
You've got a good point about the rabbis. Hard to deny that logic.
I wonder if anyone's done a study of the makeup and consistency of old stone vs. new.
Dylan,
You are right on the money. many new stones are just as good as the old ones but there are variations in any natural stone. You could find new ones that out perform old ones as well. My feeling with the Rabbis is that consistancy may be the only difference just as you pointed out. maybe due to quality cointrol the older ones were simply more consistant in quality.
Appearance alone cannot tell you a good one from a bad one, at least not on a casual level. I have had very homogoneus new stones that cut coarsly and very mottled, grainy vintage stones that cut very fine. The quarry/dealer isa not honing with each example so cannot assure a buyer whether any indivdual stone is better than another. onre can only rely on a dealer who will stand behind the purchase and offer a refund if not as expected. Even that is a tough market. A new user may simply not know good from bad and woish to return a fine stone because it does not work like magic. A stone that may not be perfect for our razor use may excel for the requirements of a woodworker sharpening a plane iron or knife.`
Tony
I don't get the new vs. old stone arguments:shrug:. Let me see if I've got this straight. My old stone (about a million years old) cuts better than my newer stone (say 950,000 years old). Do you really believe this? Cheers
Jim,
The argument is newly quarried vs. vintage quarried. The stone is all the same age. 40 or 50 years ago there were numerous coticule quarries in Belgian but today it is just one. Seams of stone vary from location to location and some simply get used up leaving possibly less desirable seams left to remove stone from. Someone brought up quality issues as well. Maybe when the stone was plentiful a supplier could be pickly about what was sawn into forst class stones and what was graded lower. With less available the "best" may not be what it once was.
Not saying that old is better than new or that suppliers have changed what they sell out of the quarries at all, just explaining the thinking here.
Tony
Good points, Tony. I stand corrected.
Aren't we a bit too harsh on newly quarried coticules?
I have been to the quarry myself and found the owner, Mr Celis a very pleasant fellow. He markets 2 qualities: fine and extra fine. He also has kosher quality if you ask him. He does not sell them explicitly as hones for razors but more as general purpose fine hones.
I got my kosher quality stone directly form him when i visited the quarry last autumn and I think it is great. I got a slurry stone as well w/ it and when I told him it had a hard inclusion that damaged the hone he replaced it free of charge. I have never even seen a vintage coticule so I cannot comment on the difference in looks/qualities etc.
Coticule is a natural stone with the varying qualities that come with anything natural.
Maybe in the olden days coticules underwent a more rigorous quality control before being marketed as "razor hone". Nowadays you got to do part of the quality control yourself.
Kees,
Exactly! each stone is different , new or old and each will perform differently. This goes for any natural as well, not just Belgians. Thuringens, Japanese naturals and maybe even many manufactured stones will vary a little as seen from posts where guys have had hard spots or inclusions in their Nortons.
Buy from a reputable dealer and all will be well.
Tony
Belgian stones are natural products. The difference between the belgians being mined today and those mined 100 years ago is that the old ones are 20,000,100 years old and the new ones are 20,000,000 years old. The vintage ones are as varied as the new ones. Anyone who has handled numerous coticules will tell you this. The figure in the coticules is cosmetic and does not affect the shave. The idea that a coticule has to be a pure creamy color in order to be good has no credence in reality. Of course, if one wants to get more money from customers, one CAN promote that idea and there is a fellow in Europe who does just that and charges 30% more for those stones. The only grade I buy is Select grade and they are great for sharpening razors.
BTW, even the Norton stones have a piece of paper in the box which says there can be variations in color and they're completely artificial stones!
Thanks Howard! I know my Rabbi customers were very harsh on color and requirements for Belgians and in my experiemnts I too found little difference in color/pattern affecting perfomance. Some creamy stones were terrific, other average. Some with odd color hues were terrific, others average.... All cut well but nothing in there apperance could tell an exceptional one from a just plain good one. All worked very well but to varying degrees......just like any other stone, each piece is unique, some exceptional.
Tony
A fellow called me this morning who is a serious honemeister. He related that he purchased an eBay coticule and the stone was quite hard. This guy has handled and honed on better than 30 coticules (as well as other stones) so he knows what he's talking about and I trust his opinions. This particular stone was the hardest of any he'd ever honed on. The stone put a great edge on one of his razors even though it was difficult to raise a slurry. That seems to be the main difference between harder and softer stones. They'll both hone a razor to perfection for shaving purposes. The softer stone will wear faster and will raise a slurry more easily. The harder stone will wear more slowly but will hone steel well. The Japanese waterstones would be equivalent to the harder coticules which is why they recommend a nagura to help raise the slurry and provide some lubricity to the stone.
I have purchased 4 different hones from Howard + cotigura and a small bout. All are of different shades. One blue and three coticules. Two natural and one on slate. The two naturals look quite different.
One is solid creamy w/definenate (distinguishement) is that a word). between the blue and yellow. The other is somewhat melded together as in Kentrif's photos.
Both naturals are ace sharpeners that put on a heavenly edge. The latter has a prima facia appearance of a woodgrain. The first one was very similar to my original on a slate base (non select).
My observation on the non select is very good but not as fast as the two premium naturals. I only sharpen a few every few months and my personal shavers so I do not have enough to give agreat gauge on.
My observation indicates that the visible eye cannot make a judgement on the stones. Perhaps a microscope photo of specific stones sold might be a good indication of quality indicating specific garnet content. This might not be a cost effective method of pricing and sales but just a thought.
My original interst in straight razors has morfed into a facination of coticule properities and the edge very smooth edge they leave on straight razor blades. I cannot say enough good about coticules for honing fine blades!
Howard,
I cannot thank you enough for all the information and time given on the phone and online about coticules. Thanks MikeB