Thread: Vintage Belgian vs. Current Belgian

I have both combination (Yellow + Blue) and there is a big difference in the Yellow stones - the looks, the feel when lapping. Not so sure in the way they hone yet... The older stone is much less speckled, more consistent color and I think it is softer, which I hear from Tony is better...

On the other hand, the Blue stones seem almost identical.

I am wondering what others have experienced.

Cheers
Ivo

There's a great deal of variation in Belgians, even between stones from the same quarry, quarried the same day.

I have 1 combo stone, 1 yellow with slate, and 2 lapping stones.
The 2 lapping stones come from the same box in the store. 1 creates a beautiful white slurry that is great for polishing and honing. the other lapping stone doesn't do much except raising a faint slurry from the hone.
Even though they come from the same place and the same time, there's a huge difference.

That being said, in ye olden age, Belgians were not yet so scarce, and the average stone was of higher quality because they simply didn't sell the mediocre stuff. Or at least not for barbers use.

These days the yellow is becoming rarer, and they sell everything they can if they can get away with it.
The store I bought mine had a number of yellows that had a few 0.5 cm blue veins coming out of the surface . According to the proprietor, that didn't matter.

Hey Bruno,
I was just curious. are you of the vintage variety or the current variety of belgian?

Originally Posted by JMS

Hey Bruno,
I was just curious. are you of the vintage variety or the current variety of belgian?

Somewhere in between.
I am not 18 anymore (If only I could be 18 again, but with my current knowledge and experience. Youth is totally misspent on the young.).

I don't have hair growing out of my ears yet, so I am not that old either.


Ah well, if you must know: 30, married, 1 daughter, 1 baby on the way.
Not yet as vintage as some of our other members I'm sure.
Though I might be the oldest Belgian around here. The only other one that I know of is Harold, and I thought he was younger than me.

So that would make me the Elder Belgian
Maybe I am a bit vintage after all. I am certainly old enough to grump about how the kids are spoiled these days.
I had to shave while walking through the snow on my bare feet, going uphill both ways. And I only had a 2 bladed gilette. And I was thankful for it.

My "softer" comment on stones was directed at Eschers and Thuringens supposedly being more desirable if softer. Recent tests between my vintage NOS Thuringens and the darl and harder Eifel/ Hunsrueck versions don't show and significant difference between harder and softer other than the harder stone cuts faster.

I don't think harder vs. sodter has the same effect on Belgians.

Maybe Howard could comment better on this one.

Tony

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

My "softer" comment on stones was directed at Eschers and Thuringens supposedly being more desirable if softer. Recent tests between my vintage NOS Thuringens and the darl and harder Eifel/ Hunsrueck versions don't show and significant difference between harder and softer other than the harder stone cuts faster.

I don't think harder vs. sodter has the same effect on Belgians.

Maybe Howard could comment better on this one.

Tony

I apologize for spreading confusion connected with Tony!

Actually I remember that Tony's comment was for Eschers but concluded by myself that if this is true for Eschers, it's probably true for Belgians, since both seem desired by rabbis and have, more or less (in my experience - more) similar results to begin with.

I tried the vintage Yellow on an already shave-ready Genco and I *think* the edge actually improved. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the stone is better, it may just be that the extra several vintage laps brought the edge to its full potential, which wasn't reached before on the other hone (although the other hone still produced a comfortable shave-ready edge).

Cheers
Ivo

I remember hearing about all vintage v. new stones after I spent a bomb on a new 8x3. I looked into it a little, and from what I could tell (and I might be wrong), it's not that new coticules have on average a different grit or consistency from the old ones. It's just that as the source dries up, quality control has become a little hit and miss, so some newly quarried coticules have occlusions, or veins that constitute more than a merely cosmetic feature, blue bits mixed in with the yellow, etc. – things that can result in defective performance. But: as far as I understand, if you have a new coticule with no such defects, and it's giving you consistent edges, you don't have to worry that it would somehow suffer in comparison to the vintage article. The stone itself isn't "newer" because it was quarried more recently.

If on the other hand you have a new coticule that's producing weird or unsatisfactory results, you should have an expert look at it, and then determine if it's necessary (and possible) to return it to the dealer.

Would be curious to hear from Howard, Lynn, Tony, Randy et al if this is more or less accurate.

Well, my natural from Howard gives me great results, I am very satisfied with it. I was just surprised to see such a difference with the vintage Yellow stone so was trying to learn more. BTW, I saw Padron (Neale's) stone from Howard - it looks like mine, and he says it's vintage - so it may well be that I have 2 vintage stones.

There must be a good reason why the rabbis go for the vintage stones and pass on the current production. I am not saying that a current stone is worse - because I really do not know. It may be worse, it may be much better. Tony already talked about natural variation...

Anyway, my stones are different. They *may* also be different ages. After all - they didn't form at the same instant (but not sure what the timeframe is). All I know: one feels softer, and has a more solid color; the other is speckled. Since we know some Eschers are more valuable than others because they are supposedly better, I wanted to learn if there is something similar with Belgians.

Cheers
Ivo

I also have a small vintage belgian, and yes the appearance is quite different from the new one. It's a solid mustard color. The newer one is speckled and lighter, the color of a chunk of italian parmesan. I haven't noticed a difference in performance, but then I'm not a good enough honer to bring out the full potential of either of these.

Are there no vintage stones with speckles? Lynn once told me he has no problem with speckles but looks askance at veins.

Howard told me the color of the vintage ones is darker in part because they used to use oil on them.

As for the softness, I wonder. My vintage also felt "soft" – the way marble feels soft. I think it might have sometime to do with years of use and handling. If they indeed used oil then that could add to it. After I gave it a good lapping I don't notice this difference as much.

You've got a good point about the rabbis. Hard to deny that logic.

I wonder if anyone's done a study of the makeup and consistency of old stone vs. new.

Dylan,
You are right on the money. many new stones are just as good as the old ones but there are variations in any natural stone. You could find new ones that out perform old ones as well. My feeling with the Rabbis is that consistancy may be the only difference just as you pointed out. maybe due to quality cointrol the older ones were simply more consistant in quality.

Appearance alone cannot tell you a good one from a bad one, at least not on a casual level. I have had very homogoneus new stones that cut coarsly and very mottled, grainy vintage stones that cut very fine. The quarry/dealer isa not honing with each example so cannot assure a buyer whether any indivdual stone is better than another. onre can only rely on a dealer who will stand behind the purchase and offer a refund if not as expected. Even that is a tough market. A new user may simply not know good from bad and woish to return a fine stone because it does not work like magic. A stone that may not be perfect for our razor use may excel for the requirements of a woodworker sharpening a plane iron or knife.`

Tony