Thread: Vintage Belgian vs. Current Belgian

I have both combination (Yellow + Blue) and there is a big difference in the Yellow stones - the looks, the feel when lapping. Not so sure in the way they hone yet... The older stone is much less speckled, more consistent color and I think it is softer, which I hear from Tony is better...

On the other hand, the Blue stones seem almost identical.

I am wondering what others have experienced.

Cheers
Ivo

There's a great deal of variation in Belgians, even between stones from the same quarry, quarried the same day.

I have 1 combo stone, 1 yellow with slate, and 2 lapping stones.
The 2 lapping stones come from the same box in the store. 1 creates a beautiful white slurry that is great for polishing and honing. the other lapping stone doesn't do much except raising a faint slurry from the hone.
Even though they come from the same place and the same time, there's a huge difference.

That being said, in ye olden age, Belgians were not yet so scarce, and the average stone was of higher quality because they simply didn't sell the mediocre stuff. Or at least not for barbers use.

These days the yellow is becoming rarer, and they sell everything they can if they can get away with it.
The store I bought mine had a number of yellows that had a few 0.5 cm blue veins coming out of the surface . According to the proprietor, that didn't matter.

Hey Bruno,
I was just curious. are you of the vintage variety or the current variety of belgian?

Originally Posted by JMS

Hey Bruno,
I was just curious. are you of the vintage variety or the current variety of belgian?

Somewhere in between.
I am not 18 anymore (If only I could be 18 again, but with my current knowledge and experience. Youth is totally misspent on the young.).

I don't have hair growing out of my ears yet, so I am not that old either.


Ah well, if you must know: 30, married, 1 daughter, 1 baby on the way.
Not yet as vintage as some of our other members I'm sure.
Though I might be the oldest Belgian around here. The only other one that I know of is Harold, and I thought he was younger than me.

So that would make me the Elder Belgian
Maybe I am a bit vintage after all. I am certainly old enough to grump about how the kids are spoiled these days.
I had to shave while walking through the snow on my bare feet, going uphill both ways. And I only had a 2 bladed gilette. And I was thankful for it.

My "softer" comment on stones was directed at Eschers and Thuringens supposedly being more desirable if softer. Recent tests between my vintage NOS Thuringens and the darl and harder Eifel/ Hunsrueck versions don't show and significant difference between harder and softer other than the harder stone cuts faster.

I don't think harder vs. sodter has the same effect on Belgians.

Maybe Howard could comment better on this one.

Tony

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

My "softer" comment on stones was directed at Eschers and Thuringens supposedly being more desirable if softer. Recent tests between my vintage NOS Thuringens and the darl and harder Eifel/ Hunsrueck versions don't show and significant difference between harder and softer other than the harder stone cuts faster.

I don't think harder vs. sodter has the same effect on Belgians.

Maybe Howard could comment better on this one.

Tony

I apologize for spreading confusion connected with Tony!

Actually I remember that Tony's comment was for Eschers but concluded by myself that if this is true for Eschers, it's probably true for Belgians, since both seem desired by rabbis and have, more or less (in my experience - more) similar results to begin with.

I tried the vintage Yellow on an already shave-ready Genco and I *think* the edge actually improved. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the stone is better, it may just be that the extra several vintage laps brought the edge to its full potential, which wasn't reached before on the other hone (although the other hone still produced a comfortable shave-ready edge).

Cheers
Ivo

A fellow called me this morning who is a serious honemeister. He related that he purchased an eBay coticule and the stone was quite hard. This guy has handled and honed on better than 30 coticules (as well as other stones) so he knows what he's talking about and I trust his opinions. This particular stone was the hardest of any he'd ever honed on. The stone put a great edge on one of his razors even though it was difficult to raise a slurry. That seems to be the main difference between harder and softer stones. They'll both hone a razor to perfection for shaving purposes. The softer stone will wear faster and will raise a slurry more easily. The harder stone will wear more slowly but will hone steel well. The Japanese waterstones would be equivalent to the harder coticules which is why they recommend a nagura to help raise the slurry and provide some lubricity to the stone.

Belgian stones are natural products. The difference between the belgians being mined today and those mined 100 years ago is that the old ones are 20,000,100 years old and the new ones are 20,000,000 years old. The vintage ones are as varied as the new ones. Anyone who has handled numerous coticules will tell you this. The figure in the coticules is cosmetic and does not affect the shave. The idea that a coticule has to be a pure creamy color in order to be good has no credence in reality. Of course, if one wants to get more money from customers, one CAN promote that idea and there is a fellow in Europe who does just that and charges 30% more for those stones. The only grade I buy is Select grade and they are great for sharpening razors.

BTW, even the Norton stones have a piece of paper in the box which says there can be variations in color and they're completely artificial stones!

Thanks Howard! I know my Rabbi customers were very harsh on color and requirements for Belgians and in my experiemnts I too found little difference in color/pattern affecting perfomance. Some creamy stones were terrific, other average. Some with odd color hues were terrific, others average.... All cut well but nothing in there apperance could tell an exceptional one from a just plain good one. All worked very well but to varying degrees......just like any other stone, each piece is unique, some exceptional.

Tony