Thread: Vintage Belgian vs. Current Belgian

I don't get the new vs. old stone arguments. Let me see if I've got this straight. My old stone (about a million years old) cuts better than my newer stone (say 950,000 years old). Do you really believe this? Cheers

Jim,
The argument is newly quarried vs. vintage quarried. The stone is all the same age. 40 or 50 years ago there were numerous coticule quarries in Belgian but today it is just one. Seams of stone vary from location to location and some simply get used up leaving possibly less desirable seams left to remove stone from. Someone brought up quality issues as well. Maybe when the stone was plentiful a supplier could be pickly about what was sawn into forst class stones and what was graded lower. With less available the "best" may not be what it once was.

Not saying that old is better than new or that suppliers have changed what they sell out of the quarries at all, just explaining the thinking here.

Tony

Good points, Tony. I stand corrected.

Aren't we a bit too harsh on newly quarried coticules?

I have been to the quarry myself and found the owner, Mr Celis a very pleasant fellow. He markets 2 qualities: fine and extra fine. He also has kosher quality if you ask him. He does not sell them explicitly as hones for razors but more as general purpose fine hones.

I got my kosher quality stone directly form him when i visited the quarry last autumn and I think it is great. I got a slurry stone as well w/ it and when I told him it had a hard inclusion that damaged the hone he replaced it free of charge. I have never even seen a vintage coticule so I cannot comment on the difference in looks/qualities etc.

Coticule is a natural stone with the varying qualities that come with anything natural.

Maybe in the olden days coticules underwent a more rigorous quality control before being marketed as "razor hone". Nowadays you got to do part of the quality control yourself.

Kees,
Exactly! each stone is different , new or old and each will perform differently. This goes for any natural as well, not just Belgians. Thuringens, Japanese naturals and maybe even many manufactured stones will vary a little as seen from posts where guys have had hard spots or inclusions in their Nortons.

Buy from a reputable dealer and all will be well.

Tony

Belgian stones are natural products. The difference between the belgians being mined today and those mined 100 years ago is that the old ones are 20,000,100 years old and the new ones are 20,000,000 years old. The vintage ones are as varied as the new ones. Anyone who has handled numerous coticules will tell you this. The figure in the coticules is cosmetic and does not affect the shave. The idea that a coticule has to be a pure creamy color in order to be good has no credence in reality. Of course, if one wants to get more money from customers, one CAN promote that idea and there is a fellow in Europe who does just that and charges 30% more for those stones. The only grade I buy is Select grade and they are great for sharpening razors.

BTW, even the Norton stones have a piece of paper in the box which says there can be variations in color and they're completely artificial stones!

Thanks Howard! I know my Rabbi customers were very harsh on color and requirements for Belgians and in my experiemnts I too found little difference in color/pattern affecting perfomance. Some creamy stones were terrific, other average. Some with odd color hues were terrific, others average.... All cut well but nothing in there apperance could tell an exceptional one from a just plain good one. All worked very well but to varying degrees......just like any other stone, each piece is unique, some exceptional.

Tony

A fellow called me this morning who is a serious honemeister. He related that he purchased an eBay coticule and the stone was quite hard. This guy has handled and honed on better than 30 coticules (as well as other stones) so he knows what he's talking about and I trust his opinions. This particular stone was the hardest of any he'd ever honed on. The stone put a great edge on one of his razors even though it was difficult to raise a slurry. That seems to be the main difference between harder and softer stones. They'll both hone a razor to perfection for shaving purposes. The softer stone will wear faster and will raise a slurry more easily. The harder stone will wear more slowly but will hone steel well. The Japanese waterstones would be equivalent to the harder coticules which is why they recommend a nagura to help raise the slurry and provide some lubricity to the stone.

I have purchased 4 different hones from Howard + cotigura and a small bout. All are of different shades. One blue and three coticules. Two natural and one on slate. The two naturals look quite different.

One is solid creamy w/definenate (distinguishement) is that a word). between the blue and yellow. The other is somewhat melded together as in Kentrif's photos.

Both naturals are ace sharpeners that put on a heavenly edge. The latter has a prima facia appearance of a woodgrain. The first one was very similar to my original on a slate base (non select).

My observation on the non select is very good but not as fast as the two premium naturals. I only sharpen a few every few months and my personal shavers so I do not have enough to give agreat gauge on.

My observation indicates that the visible eye cannot make a judgement on the stones. Perhaps a microscope photo of specific stones sold might be a good indication of quality indicating specific garnet content. This might not be a cost effective method of pricing and sales but just a thought.

My original interst in straight razors has morfed into a facination of coticule properities and the edge very smooth edge they leave on straight razor blades. I cannot say enough good about coticules for honing fine blades!

Howard,
I cannot thank you enough for all the information and time given on the phone and online about coticules. Thanks MikeB