Which tape?

Hi all,
i have been honing my razors for about 4 years now. I use a Coticule mostly, and have had great results. If I need to restore a bevel I use a 1200k Bear and then finish on the Coti.
Now, that is my hollow ground razor process. I have just started to get brave and try to restore some old near wedge razors. The question is, what tape should I be using? As I used 2 layers of insulation tape last night, and although I got a good result, the tape had worn in places on the spine. This has given me an uneven bevel. Am I using the wrong kind of tape?
When applying the tape I made sure it was totally symmetrical both sides. I started with my 1200 Bear and finished on my Coticule. Probably inadequate process for a wedge.

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Originally Posted by reload

Hi all,
i have been honing my razors for about 4 years now. I use a Coticule mostly, and have had great results. If I need to restore a bevel I use a 1200k Bear and then finish on the Coti.
Now, that is my hollow ground razor process. I have just started to get brave and try to restore some old near wedge razors. The question is, what tape should I be using? As I used 2 layers of insulation tape last night, and although I got a good result, the tape had worn in places on the spine. This has given me an uneven bevel. Am I using the wrong kind of tape?
Whwn applying the tape I made sure it was totally symmetrical both sides. I started with my 1200k Bear and finished on my Coticule. Probably inadequate process for a wedge.

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Hi there,
Any insulation tape will do as long as you use the same type each time you re hone the razor for touch ups etc. You need to keep a close eye on the tape as any type you use will wear. On the lower grit hones as soon as you see even a small amount of wear change the tape. After that I've been advised to change it as I change up to each stone
Hope this helps

Ive actually been researching the same... I have found online that 3M and other brands make tape that is extremely abrasion resistant, Im now just trying to find which ones are the thinnest so I can stay close to factory angles as possible. So far I have found some that are .1mm thick, which shouldn't change the geometry too much? (saying this as a novice). Would love to hear if others have used these types of tape before, or whether a cheaper and thinner tape is best and just replace the tape more often.

I use "floor tape" for marking gymnasium floors. It's not noticeably thicker than electric tape, yet I've never had it wear through on the hone or even show significant abrasion.

You don't need tape. Just hone without it.
They don't use it in the factory where most are made.

Dries

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Originally Posted by Dries

You don't need tape. Just hone without it.
They don't use it in the factory where most are made.

Dries

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Very true - you don't *need* it, but especially when it comes to heavy wedges or near-wedges, there are advantages to using it. This is one of the many straight-razor-related questions in which there is no one clear answer. For example if you look at arguably the two (or at least two of the) most recognized razor honers out there, Lynn and Glenn (gssixgun), Glenn typically uses tape, Lynne typically doesn't.

If you do choose to use tape, it's worth getting better quality as it will last longer and you'll have to swap it out less frequently. 3M 700 is the one I use and it lasts *much* longer than the cheap stuff I had been using before.

If the tape is wearing unevenly, that may be a sign that the spine is wonky. One approach to address that is to put on one layer, hone until it wears through to the steel, and then place another layer on top of the first. That can help even out high and low points on the spine.

I've used both the 3M and "Duck" brands - which are exactly the same thickness - 0.070mm on my calipers.

I prefer the Duck brand because it never leaves adhesive residue on the blade.

-john

You don't need tape, but when doing a lot of steel removal during the initial stages of a bevel set on a heavier grind of razor, you are better off with 2 layers of tape. As the top layer wears away you can either change it (if you have more to do) or let it keep wearing away to transition to the angle of a single layer. When the bevel is nearly finished you can switch to only one layer.

I agree that you don't need tape, but like others have said if you use it make sure you use the same tape each time since the thickness varies. I, personally don't use tape on any razor in my rotation, but I will use it if I need to remove alot of metal. I use 3m brand then. I will transition to no tape once I get the chip or whatever out. I know alot of people are worried about hone wear, but once a razor is shave ready a touch up won't really add any noticeable wear probably for a lifetime. This is one of those things that will go back and forth and never really have an answer. It is personal opinion and either way is right.

Why do you switch to one layer when the bevel is nearly finished?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You don't need tape, but when doing a lot of steel removal during the initial stages of a bevel set on a heavier grind of razor, you are better off with 2 layers of tape. As the top layer wears away you can either change it (if you have more to do) or let it keep wearing away to transition to the angle of a single layer. When the bevel is nearly finished you can switch to only one layer.

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Originally Posted by WW243

Why do you switch to one layer when the bevel is nearly finished?

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One layer of tape slightly increases the angle of the bevel. Two layers increase it more. Two layers offer more protection during bevel setting but going back to only one layer brings the angle closer to the original angle.

If you don't mind me saying there's some mis-information on here about always using the same type of tape - that is evidenced by the post above where tape is used for bevel set and then removed. If the thickness of the tape made that much difference then removing it completely must make a massive difference - right?

Not according to Glen. Removing tape makes about 1% difference to the bevel angle and this is quickly taken up on somethging like a 4k hone - so the theory is to use tape for bevel set - so as to protect the spine from undue wear, then remove the tape for further polishing.

I always use tape with wedges - there is a calculation tool on Coticule.be that tells you the optimum number of layers depending on spine thickness and blade width. This is nothing to do with protecting the spine - it just corrects the geometry so that you get the correct bevel angle. By the way it also allows you to adjust for the thickness of tape you are using - and the easiest way to establish that is to measure the spine without tape and then with tape - but dont forget to divide the difference by two.:p

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Originally Posted by UKRob

If you don't mind me saying there's some mis-information on here about always using the same type of tape - that is evidenced by the post above where tape is used for bevel set and then removed. If the thickness of the tape made that much difference then removing it completely must make a massive difference - right?

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Wrong.
There is no logic to that statement. The "difference" remains the same. It does not become massive upon removal.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Wrong.
There is no logic to that statement. The "difference" remains the same. It does not become massive upon removal.

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So if tape A is .1mm thick and tape B is .07mm thick and people are worried about the difference between the two types then removing the tape altogether makes it three times as bad - that is a massive difference. I stand by my statement.

I'm a taper. I prefer the feel of taped blade on the stones. Tapeless feels nekkid.

If you're going to use it, keep it fresh and develop a good and safe method of removal and application. It's like adding a chore to a task at first, but it gets easier.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

So if tape A is .1mm thick and tape B is .07mm thick and people are worried about the difference between the two types then removing the tape altogether makes it three times as bad - that is a massive difference. I stand by my statement.

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but why would anyone mix tape thicknesses or mix taped with untaped honing? I wouldn't do it that way and wouldn't recommend it. Use tape or don't and use the same tape. easy.

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Originally Posted by UKRob

Not according to Glen. Removing tape makes about 1% difference to the bevel angle and this is quickly taken up on somethging like a 4k hone - so the theory is to use tape for bevel set - so as to protect the spine from undue wear, then remove the tape for further polishing.

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And I just re-affirmed that to myself last night on the hones :) Had a razor in with a request for a "no tape honing", and it really is that quick, 1 layer of #700 3M Scotch tape, quick bevel set on the Chosera 1k, remove tape, did 10 light laps on the 1k then moved to the 5k and on up...

When you are simply using tape to protect the spine it really makes little difference


I do agree that it becomes a different issue all together when using it on a spine worn oldie to adjust bad geometry, then you are using it to compensate for missing steel, whole different usage...


Simple, if you are going to use tape, use the good stuff, apply it carefully and evenly, and change it often...


Oh yeah here is my quick calculation for corrective use of tape :)

0-1mm of spine wear = 1 layer
1-2mm of spine wear 2 layers
over 2 mm of spine wear 3 layers

Personally I don't like more than using 3 layers, I start thinking that the razor might need a different direction :p

The focus of the tape discussion seems to have been qualitative. I brought up the doubling up of the tape in order to help with dealing with the wearing of the tape during the heavy cutting of a bevel setter. Initial thickness is irrelevant because it is wearing away with every stroke with the limit reached when the spine is exposed through the tape.

Interesting thought:

Some believe that the strongest bevel possible and the smoothest shaving bevel is a Convex bevel...

People have gone so far as to create micro bevels to help facilitate that, however what Ron just described "Letting the tape wear down as you hone", would accomplish a near perfect Convex bevel..

:hmmm:

Yes I have tried it, you should too

Like everyone else, I've watched Lynn and Glens videos. I've adopted bits and pieces of both their methods. Initially I used tape, because I didn't trust myself not to over scour the spine. Now, tape is just part of my regimen. It also helps me when honing my W&B near wedge.

I thought I would be opening up a can of worms here. Thank you for your input fella's.
Here a some pictures of the razor. I haven't shaved with it yet, but it pots arm hairs.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...1/IMG_0862.jpg
As you can see the bevel is thicker on the heel on 1 side, and on the other it's the toe. I'm hoping that it is wear on the spine and not my honing.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...1/IMG_0864.jpg

I would be interested in your thoughts?

So all the advise above... I'm thinking I would be OK to use 2 pieces of tape to initially set the bevel (changing often) then finish without tape.

To me, and i know it's done both ways, that's backwards. If i'm going to reduce tape thickness it's only because i went "extra" on the tape to use coarse stone/diamond to establish and edge to work from, and some preliminary bevel corrections.

I like to get down to a shaving edge asap, that tells me how the metal responds and if it'll shave. Then i can go back and shape on the bevel...if the steel is worthy.

I'm subscribing to the slight convexation that we get from the tape wearing as we hone.

Deleting tape is fine so long as you hone all the way back to the edge, otherwise you'll only be polishing the sides.

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Originally Posted by reload

Here a some pictures of the razor. I haven't shaved with it yet, but it pots arm hairs.

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You have a Warp in the razor... You have chased that warp which is why the bevel is becoming more unevenly pronounced, it probably will not effect the shaving at all..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You have a Warp in the razor... You have chased that warp which is why the bevel is becoming more unevenly pronounced, it probably will not effect the shaving at all..

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Shame, I have another 1 of these razors, how do I know if there is warpage on that 1?

Is there anyone on this forum who lives in the south of the UK that is available to guide me?