I accept that I must tape the spine resetting the bevel on the Chosera 1k but have heard it is possible to transition away from tape on a 3k stone. Next would be a coticule finishing up with a thuringian. How do you make this transition?
David
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I accept that I must tape the spine resetting the bevel on the Chosera 1k but have heard it is possible to transition away from tape on a 3k stone. Next would be a coticule finishing up with a thuringian. How do you make this transition?
David
If you mean the transition from taped 1k to un-taped 3k, then simply hone away on the 1k with tape and don't worry about the wear on the tape as long is it does not wear all the way through. When the bevel is set, take the tape off and hone on the 3k. The normally required number of strokes on the 3k should be more than enough to convert the bevel to an un-taped angle.
If you don't want to tape and are resetting the bevel. The time to "transition" is when you start on the 1K.
Won't the 1K damage the spine if the razor is not taped?
It will wear the spine. This is more the case on the 1k but all hones will wear the spine. It's a matter of degree, personal preference, and honer skill.
I use tape when setting the bevel with my Chosera 1K, then take it off when I hone with my Naniwa SS 5K, 8K, Coticule, and Escher. Works great for me.
You don't use a 3k transition stone without tape? Someone said I should do that.
I go straight from taped on a 1k to untaped on a coticule (normal slurry dilution process). Never had any problems achieving a great edge. Sometimes I finish up with a thuringian, sometimes I just enjoy the edge straight off the coticule (depends on the razor and my mood...).
That's what I'll do. Thank you.
David
Isn't tape on the 1K then not taping just fooling yourself? You have to "grind" the bevel down to the plane of the spine (with the corresponding wear on the spine) to get to the edge on the higher grits so where is the benefit of tape then not tape?
It doesn't make sense to remove it after the 1K, because the tape is actually giving you the angle remove the tape when you go to the 3K then you have just altered the angle, well they are your razors and you can do with what you like but let common sense prevail and tape the spine, the one thing you don't explain is why you don't like to tape?
I don't like to tape because I don't want to have to every time I refresh a razor. I want to tape at 1k because without it it visibly scratches up the spine when the coticule does not.
My idea was to set the bevel with the 1k and then alter it with the 3k and proceed from there to the coticule. I don't know if this is workable or not.
You don't want to tape every time you refresh the razor well you mean every couple of months maybe even longer if you have a few razors so I don't understand how taping is an issue and we are only talking about one small piece of tape after all.
I have to say that the last two posts 10 + 11 make sense, if you take a sheet of paper and draw out the bevel angle with tape, then without you should see that the edge wont hit the stone until the 1k bevel is ground down, thus producing exactly the same wear on the spine as if you hadnt used tape at 1k. It will just take longer to wear the spine down enough to catch the edge as the grit is finer.
I am in no way experienced with honing, it just seems that the maths speak for themselves.
The scratches show up more because the grit is coarser, the actual wear should be the same, in fact the finisher should, i would have thought polish out the 1k scratches.
You can also tape the spine initially, doing some of the heavy work at the 1k level. Once that is finished remove the tape to finish,
Jamie and the others are right, start with tape and stick with the tape untill the end. You may be abel to get a good edge after with removing the tape but I can garantee if you leave the tape on you will get there in a fraction of the strokes and wont wear the spine as a bonus.
Anyways you are going to strop and use some pastes for a good couple of months untill it needs honing again if you have only a couple of other razors that like once or twice a year. What's 3 inch of tape once or twice a year?
for what its worth, 2 years into the honing I am fully converted to using tape all the time now.
3 inches? Good grief i use a foot at least on the first go of most blades, retape, retape, retape. (every week (diff't blades))
If you don't want to use tape, fine don't use tape.
If the edge needs a good bit of metal removed, don't do it with the spine on the rock. I think that's where we get a lot of nasty looking hone-wear. It's when an edge has been damaged and the honer just grinds and grinds the edge/spine back together as if he has to. You don't has to. I don't drop the spine back to the stone until the edge is cleared of nicks and frowns and such.
I do use tape, but that's the feel I prefer and also that gives me a little variance to play with by altering the number of layers-which is something you cannot do with a nekkid spine. Examples: wedge and when using diamond plates-where one or two extra layers of tape are used.
So there are transitions in my honing, just not to a bare spine.
Hone on!
Guys it really isn't that hard,,,
Setting a bevel angle with 1 layer of tape to not subject the spine to the 1k wear is fine, switch to no tape at the next level with the light normal honing pressure not the heavy "Bevel Setting" pressure works just fine honest it really does.. So does learning to adjust the bevel setting pressure to the edge and off the spine but that takes a bit more practice..
The difference between 1 layer of tape and no tape is so MINUTE it takes in actual practice about 20 laps on a 3-5k hone to erase a fresh bevel with tape,, on the reverse of that Adding tape for a refresh after some time shaving takes even less to erase the 1 layer bevel as the edge has been pounded by hair and fixed multiple times with a strop so the angle difference is even less...
All you have to do is try the experiments yourself, it takes less time to check the facts yourself, then it does to type this...
IE: The effect of 1 layer of tape is greatly exaggerated,,,
(everything I typed above does not apply to using multiple layers of tape for corrective honing)
Just as you have described.Quote:
I accept that I must tape the spine resetting the bevel on the Chosera 1k but have heard it is possible to transition away from tape on a 3k stone. Next would be a coticule finishing up with a thuringian. How do you make this transition?
1k stone with tape.
3k stone without tape.
Coticule
Thuringian
I don't think this is the most efficient use of time, or the most effective idea for protecting the spine. But it's not relevant to your question. If you're new to honing, then this isn't even something you need to be thinking about. Just tape everything all the time(if spine wear is your concern) until you figure out how often you'll need to "refresh", and how effectively you can sharpen a razor.
Generally speaking, I never tape unless I have breadknifed a blade. If you have a blade in decent shape, if you're taking a considerable amount off the spine to correct an edge... you are doing something drastically wrong lol!
That's my two cents anyway. I am pretty sure every blade I have will still look great and be in working order for my son when he becomes of age - he's three :).
Pretty much what Glen said.
In response to the earlier question,"Why tape at all if you're only doing it on the first grit?"
The only reason I use tape on the 1K is because I have had an instance or two where I've set the bevel without it and the gritty swarf was sufficient enough to leave a scratch or two just below the normal area of spine contact. So, although the spine-sides themselves got polished out on subsequent finer grits, those scratch had to polished out with compounds.
On the other hand, when I apply tape to the spine it drapes far enough down the sides to protect those areas. Once I move off the 1k diamond plate onto the other stones I find it not to be an issue so - purely out of laziness - bye bye tape.
To tape or not to tape, that is the question.
It would seem to me that the scratches made by the bevel setter on the spine would be sequentially removed as you move to finer grits.
When you refine the edge you are also refining the spine.
I think if you tape for the bevel setter and then remove the tape, hone on your 3K or whatever, the amount of spine wear incured is the same as you would have if you left the tape off to begin with.
Having said that as gssixgun has said, it would not take long to reset the bevel on the 3K stone.
As a side you should calculate your bevel angle before you decide to tape or not to tape.
I gotta put my 2¢ in here. OP I think you got your answer. If you are still unclear then re-read glens post. It couldn't get much clearer than that. Best of luck and let us know what you did/learned. :)
Heck, I don't even change the tape from 1K, 3K, 8K, 12K and ZG anymore and it seems to work just fine. In the end either tape the spine and save wear on it or don't tape it and have some wear on it.
Bob
I don't use tape at all, I just find it easier. I have never worried about getting the spine all scratched up. The only exception is my SRP custom, it is one of my two razors I got brand new, all the rest of them had hone wear when I got them so I'm not to worried about it.
As respectfully and politely as possible...
Neither of these statements are correct.
Spine wear occurs only during the time the steel is in direct contact with the stone. Tape blocks that wear. During bevel setting, you are often removing a significant amount of steel from the edge to reveal an unblemished edge. Only at that point is it necessary for the "correct" (if you want it) untaped bevel angle to be made. If the tape is removed at that point, it will only take a few 1k strokes to remove the shoulder of the bevel to form the untaped bevel. You may have needed 100--200 strokes to get the edge right and it might only take 10 more to get the bevel angle right. So do you want 200 strokes of spine wear or only 10?
Tape only slightly alters the angle. No calculation needs to be involved in the decision of whether or not to tape.
I only tape the spine with my Hart. I tried without tape but couldn't get the edge I wanted. I don't use tape on any of my other razors.
This makes perfect sense, as many know and i'm sure Glen has said (where i may has picked it up) ANY time i'm using diamond-powered hones one can get "harsher" scratches in the bevel (and spine if running nekkid) that don't readily hone out with subsequent stones.
And so therefore, some of us tapers use an extra layer of tape at that point in time, to reduce such scratching from the diamonds. And what Malacoda says here runs parallel eh? Zero tape plus one layer (0+1) is the layer you use BSing on the diamond, then back to zero. Where tapers using one, would have two on the diamond (1+1), and then back to one.
Okay now on to more secrets of taping: Yes it's slow and tedious applying and removing over and over and trying not to get cut nor damage your fine workmanships. This passes with experience. I can now safely and quickly tape with my eyes closed in a squall with my shoes untied. Took a while. Residue: If the tape i'm using leaves a little residue, I simply leave it there until I do an 91% alcohol wipe of the blade-usually after CrOx. Or naphtha (the greatest residue remover ever).
Nope. The greatest tape residue remover is the tape itself. Dab the sticky side of the tape that you just pulled off (it's already in your hand so that helps make it the greatest) onto the residue and it will lift right off.
I only use tape for setting a bevel on a "ebay" razor or the such, then I remove the tape and finish the bevel set on 1K. Take into mind that I used tape for several hundred razors when I was learning before I felt that I could cause minimal wear on the spine.
After the bevel is set with tape, doesn't take long without tape to get the bevel reset.
I tape and retape because I like the ritual and what protection it affords the spine. Personal preference. Nothing more really. That's it. I've just made it part of my mental process giving myself a few more seconds to think ahead. No need to rush. I've had far better results with deliberative action.(same with shaving ;)
Unless, as Glen mentioned, you are dealing with a troubled razor which requires multiple layers of tape to use "honing gymnastics" to hone out a problem and progress toward true bevel set. Interesting experience, that.
IT sure saves the spine ,never had that problem after the bevel has been made by the 1000k less pressure is applied to the razor on the stone.Lynn has the best video on honong a razor.:chapeau
I have a collection of vintage razors mostly in mint condition. Some have been honed by a pro and he did not use tape to set the bevel. I don't want tape with anything except the 1k because I want all my razors to be consistent. When refreshing a razor, I don't want to wonder whether I need to tape it or not. On the other hand, I put some nifty wear on the spine of a Philarmonica with a 1k and don't want to repeat that mistake. As I mentioned, I have heard it is possible to use tape on the 1k to avoid damaging the spine and then remove the tape and introduce a 3k into the process before moving on to the coticule. If this works well I will always be able to refresh all my razors the same way. I'm not philosophically opposed to tape. I just want consistent refreshing procedures for all my razors.