Missing the Edge

I've been honing this 5/8" Wostenholm. This is my 3rd try at it. I'm able to shave with it when I'm done, but I can tell it's not a good job that I did. I am using a 1000 grit Chosera, and 5000, 8000, and 12,000 Super Stones. I have sprays and pastes that I use on my modular strop. But all these nice things, and I still can't produce a really nice edge - I get too much pulling and tugging.
My sister just got a USB Microscope. I used it to see what was taking place on my blade. It looks to me, from the light glinting from the very edge of my razor, that somehow I'm not hitting the extreme edge. The rest of the bevel is nice and shiny, but at the very edge, I think I'm missing it. If that is indeed true, what do I do to correct it? I thought about adding tape, but that would be kind of 'cheating'. I should be able to hit the edge without it.
So if you could check out my kind of poor pictures, and make something out of them, maybe you could help me out?
BTW, the pictures only show how the edge looked after going up to #8000 and stropping. After that I thought I'd see how I was doing before going up to the #12,000 grit SS. When I saw the edge, it didn't make sense to go up if I'm not hitting the whole edge.

Try inspecting the edge after using the 1000k. If the bevel is set at that level, everything else should fall into place. Good luck.

I would say spend more time on the 1k since appears that the bevel is not set. There is no point moving to higher grits until the bevel is completely set. Since you have access to a microscope you can watch the striations reach the edge as you hone. Once the striations reach the edge on both sides you should be good to move on.

Perhaps you are using too much pressure and flexing the edge. This happens easier with the thinner grinds. There are a lot of things that could be going on so it is hard to say for sure.

Good luck!

I would have to agree that the problem appears to be the bevel not being fully set. I know it can feel lime forever, but that is the single most important aspect. It all falls I to place after that.

Hey Kenny,,,what type of USB Scope was that ??

Forgot to say, try the sharpie method to see if the bevel is set. The microscope will be perfect.

Ink… ink the bevel and do some laps on the 1K until all the ink is removed. Then re-ink and do 10 more lite laps and check to ensure the bevel is completely set.

Do yourself a favor, tape the spine until you have mastered bevel setting. Until then you are grinding away on the spine trying to figure it out. You may be compounding the problem by wearing the spine needlessly.

Do not move up the progression, until you are sure the bevel is completely set.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Hey Kenny,,,what type of USB Scope was that ??

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I PM'd you. Didn't know whether I was allowed to put a link here.

Pretty much everyone is saying the bevel isn't set, and I already figured that ;) That's what has me mystified though. This time, knowing about the importance of bevel setting, I spent a ridiculous amount of time and effort just setting the bevel. And when I figured I was done, it seemed to pass all the tests. I paid especial attention to the hair cutting test. It cut arm hair very easily, or so I thought. But yet, when I was able to look at it under a microscope, it didn't look right :gaah:.

So back to the #1000 grit... Thank you very much to everyone for all the great suggestions. I am going to ink the edge (don't know why I didn't do it this time), and then keep checking on my progress under the microscope. I had been using a small, lighted magnifier, but I don't think it was really strong enough to adequately show me what was really going on. I may tape the edge too. If I do tape the edge at the #1000 grit level, can I go on to the rest of my progression without taping the edge? I seem to recall reading somewhere that that was possible. If it is possible, I'd rather do that as I really don't like to use tape. Just my own personal preference.

Anyway... Thanks so much for all the help. I'm going to work on this again today. When I get finished setting the bevel, I may post another picture of the magnified results. And then, I will wait till I hear from y'all before going on.

Have a Great One,

Kenny

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Originally Posted by bruseth

Pretty much everyone is saying the bevel isn't set, and I already figured that ;) That's what has me mystified though. This time, knowing about the importance of bevel setting, I spent a ridiculous amount of time and effort just setting the bevel. And when I figured I was done, it seemed to pass all the tests. I paid especial attention to the hair cutting test. It cut arm hair very easily, or so I thought. But yet, when I was able to look at it under a microscope, it didn't look right :gaah:.

So back to the #1000 grit... Thank you very much to everyone for all the great suggestions. I am going to ink the edge (don't know why I didn't do it this time), and then keep checking on my progress under the microscope. I had been using a small, lighted magnifier, but I don't think it was really strong enough to adequately show me what was really going on. I may tape the edge too. If I do tape the edge at the #1000 grit level, can I go on to the rest of my progression without taping the edge? I seem to recall reading somewhere that that was possible. If it is possible, I'd rather do that as I really don't like to use tape. Just my own personal preference.

Anyway... Thanks so much for all the help. I'm going to work on this again today. When I get finished setting the bevel, I may post another picture of the magnified results. And then, I will wait till I hear from y'all before going on.

Have a Great One,

Kenny

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Kenny,

I think you meant to say taping the spine. :) And, yes you can tape, set the bevel and then remove the tape. However I'd stay at the 1k to make the slight correction to the geometry....shouldn't take too many strokes, or circles and strokes.

Try keeping enough water on the stone so you can see the blade pushing the water evenly on the stone. If one area doesn't move water then it likely needs a little attention. Also, as you get near and at the actual bevel set you should see the edge starting to undercut the water. That's a good sign that you're close or maybe there. Don't put too much water on the surface or it will be deep enough to undercut a non set edge. Also, not enough water and you won't see the movement or undercut. Takes a little practice, but you'll get it!! :D

:gl: and if you get frustrated, put it aside and take a day off!!

Regards,

Howard :)

Bruseth... Tape is good. Electrical tape just gives you more tactile control over what your doing.

Kenny,
If you tape the spine keep using the tape until you are done honing.
If honing a lot on the 1000 you might have to replace the tape as it wears out.
I like to put a fresh piece of tape on the spine prior to using the finishing hone.
Remove the tape and clean the blade before you do any stropping.
You have a great selection of hones and with practice you will get there!

No expert here, but like Howard said, watching the undercut of the water can be a real help. There are many bevel setting tests but this one has been the most predictable for me.
But back to your question at hand - why isn't the bevel being set.
In my own limited experience, there several blades that I was just not taking control of. The grind may have been off or other geometry problems, but I was just not providing enough pressure and/or staying on that stone long enough. That's where the tape helps - you won't be anxious about a little pressure when your spine is not at risk.
So in my novice opinion, I'd leave the tape on until you get it set, then do what you want with it. Once it's set and you take the tape off, supposedly it only then takes few strokes to set it again without the tape.
What grind is the razor?

A large part of setting the bevel, is getting the bevels flat and even and then meeting at the edge. They must meet, the bevels flat and in line with the spine all the way to the edge.

Hair test, while they can tell you if the bevels are meeting at one point, cannot tell you if the whole bevel is meeting.

Looking at your photos it does appear there are spots that are not meeting (Shinny Spots) but the real test is looking straight down on the edge, not from the side. You do not need high magnification to do this.

Viewing from the side will tell you if you are honing all the way to the edge, but not if the bevels are meeting at the edged “Completely”, because you can only see one side at a time.

Here is a simple, fool proof way to test for a “Complete Bevel Set”.

Once you have achieved this, 10 more light no pressure laps at the 1K, to begin to polish the bevel.
Taping the spine will increase the bevel angle and make reaching the edge easier in addition to saving the spine. First learn to achieve a bevel set then decide if you want to continue to tape.

You can learn to shave with your eyes close, but shaving with your eyes open is not cheating. It’s common sense.

If you are having trouble creating an edge, grinding the spine reducing the thickness will make the bevels larger and more difficult to reach the edge.

Also use less pressure and let the stone do the work.

Oh and I'll add one more thing I've learned. It may happen that you can undercut the water on one side but not the other. This would tell me to spend more time on that side until in came in even with the other.
So while you'll eventully get there by doing an even number of strokes both sides, it may take longer.

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

Kenny,

I think you meant to say taping the spine. :)


Regards,

Howard :)

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Thanks, Howard. Yeah, I meant taping the spine :o. Although, with the bang-up job I've done so far, I might do better at taping the edge! At least I won't mess it up any more ;-)

Thanks for the good advice. I very much appreciate it.

Take Care,

Kenny

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

If one area doesn't move water then it likely needs a little attention.

Regards,

Howard :)

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I did have a part of the blade that wasn't pushing water as well as the rest. I really didn't know what to do about that though. So, by needing 'a little attention', what should that attention be? Should I exert some pressure on the blade in that area? Then if I do that, I would keep on adding a bit of pressure to that same area through the rest of my progression?

If you get some time Howard, or anyone else for that matter, maybe you could let me know how to handle that part of the edge that isn't pushing water the way it should?

Thanks so much to you, Howard, and everybody else, for all the really great help you've been giving me. It's the next best thing to y'all actually being next to my side as I go along.

Thanks Again,

Kenny

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Originally Posted by RoyalCake

No expert here, but like Howard said, watching the undercut of the water can be a real help. There are many bevel setting tests but this one has been the most predictable for me.
But back to your question at hand - why isn't the bevel being set.
In my own limited experience, there several blades that I was just not taking control of. The grind may have been off or other geometry problems, but I was just not providing enough pressure and/or staying on that stone long enough. That's where the tape helps - you won't be anxious about a little pressure when your spine is not at risk.
So in my novice opinion, I'd leave the tape on until you get it set, then do what you want with it. Once it's set and you take the tape off, supposedly it only then takes few strokes to set it again without the tape.
What grind is the razor?

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It's full hollow-grind. Yep, I'm going to try using some tape. Right about now, I'd use a banana if I thought it would help :p

Thanks for your suggestions. It's much appreciated.

Have a Good One,

Kenny

These guys have covered pretty much all, you need more work on the bevel. The bevel set is 80% of a shaving edge, the rest is just smoothing/polishing out the cuttting edge. Magnification is a great tool, but don't let it become a crutch either. Pay attention to how the edge feels once you have the bevel all the way out to the cutting edge. Best of all, enjoy the journey.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

These guys have covered pretty much all, you need more work on the bevel. The bevel set is 80% of a shaving edge, the rest is just smoothing/polishing out the cuttting edge. Magnification is a great tool, but don't let it become a crutch either. Pay attention to how the edge feels once you have the bevel all the way out to the cutting edge. Best of all, enjoy the journey.

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Thanks Scott. I was hoping you'd come along ;-) It's actually your razors (haven't made it to the post office yet, sorry) that started all this. I thought that it would be very cool if I could make my razors as sharp as the ones that you were so kind as to lend me. So, the journey began. I bought a nice set of stones from SRD. Then I bought the SRD Modular strop to use with sprays and pastes. Boy, I thought, you're ready now! Wait till I do this, and tell Scott. Then I tried, and fell flat on my butt ;-( I had a set of stones before, but they were my woodworking stones. I convinced myself, and my wife, that I needed a perfect, dedicated set just for sharpening razors, and I would be just fine. Wrong again. The stones and the strop are very nice though. My failure this time is much prettier than all of my previous failures :)

Anyway, with all the GREAT advice I've been getting here, I feel refreshed and invigorated. Hopefully, this time I will succeed. If not, it certainly isn't from lack of help. Once again, a big thanks to each and every one who has posted here.

I'll let y'all know how it's going once I get the nerve up to try again.

Thanks,

Kenny

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Originally Posted by bruseth

I did have a part of the blade that wasn't pushing water as well as the rest. I really didn't know what to do about that though. So, by needing 'a little attention', what should that attention be? Should I exert some pressure on the blade in that area? Then if I do that, I would keep on adding a bit of pressure to that same area through the rest of my progression?

If you get some time Howard, or anyone else for that matter, maybe you could let me know how to handle that part of the edge that isn't pushing water the way it should?

Thanks so much to you, Howard, and everybody else, for all the really great help you've been giving me. It's the next best thing to y'all actually being next to my side as I go along.

Thanks Again,

Kenny

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Well it can be a couple of things. If it's at the toe or heel it could be you're not keeping the blade flat on the hone. If it's a spot between the ends, it can be an uneven grind or if the bevel is wide on one side and narrow on the other exact opposite...... maybe a warp.

For the inner spots, and you said its full hollow, put your index finger just above the edge portion that's missing contact and apply "gentle" pressure during a few x strokes or circles and see if that helps. It might take a few tries depending on the spot. You're not trying to put enough pressure to flex the blade. Modest pressure. Once you have that part making contact without the finger pressure you shouldn't have to continue with it the remainder of the honing.

Also, in general, pressure during honing especially on a full hollow is not bearing down on the blade edge and spine. It's holding the tang with the thumb and index or middle finger applying a slight twist, torquing the edge into the hone. And of course keeping the spine in contact with the hone. We're just talking a slight torque, not trying to roll the blade up.

Keep having fun!! :D

Howard :)

Kenny,
Then best thing you can do to really learn quickly is to find someone who is near you who is proficient at honing. My rough journey took me many months and months to learn, lots of $ sending razors to my honing mentor, and I would estimate at about 100 razors it all started to come together. You have a great set of stones, you just have to develop the "feel". Please stay away from sprays & pastes for this venture. Once you get it, you will notice the minor differences of the feel in different razors and it goes on. Once you "think" you have it, do some razor trading with others, both aspiring honers & honing veterans to get some feedback. I participated in a trade a few months ago & funny/honest part was that I was a bit nervous to hear the response on how it shaved. It was a good "gut check".

Before you send the razors back to me, I want you to dull the razors on a bottle or side of your 1K, tape the spine, and re-hone them. Send them to me ready to shave.

BTW, most of us who will readily admit it failed more often than succeeded on producing a truly shave ready blade.

This is why we recommend for new straight users to learn to shave first...we really don't know what shave ready is when we are starting out. Once we know how to shave and then take a dull razor to our face, we know something is amiss. The real fun part is when you start overhoning & scratch your head wondering what is going on. You start out with a blade that is just gliding through whiskers amazingly well and before you finish your shave the blade is really pulling...yep, over-honed edge that was so fragile that it crumbled. Honing is a very rewarding AND frustrating journey, as is anything that is worth it.

First, I am far from an expert with honing. Just getting started myself.

Could this be an issue with lapping the stone/stones?

I did not see it mentioned in the prior posts. Just a thought

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Originally Posted by SS502MC

First, I am far from an expert with honing. Just getting started myself.

Could this be an issue with lapping the stone/stones?

I did not see it mentioned in the prior posts. Just a thought

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I've been keeping them pretty flat with a couple of diamond hones that I have. Thanks for the idea though.

Thanks,

Kenny

Just one more thing to check (BTW I'm no expert on razor honing but done hundreds of knifes and appreciate that they are two very different animals though the principals are pretty much the same).
Are all your stones completely flat ?

The best way I have found to ensure a completely flat surface is to draw a grid on the stone. Then take your lapping stone (or whatever you are using, I use an 8" course DMT for lapping all of mine). If there are any non flat areas on the stone it becomes very clear because the grid remains. Hope that helps

First look at your razor, put a straight edge against the spine, top and sides and the edge sides to see if they are straight, if not you will have to compensate for the warp. Or lay the blade on a hard flat surface, a stone works. Some warp is normal on vintage razors.

If you hone a full hollow and use too much pressure the blade can flex and the edge will lift off the stone, the back end of the bevel acts as a fulcrum. Too much pressure is a common novice mistake, especially when bevel setting and cause of much frustration.

If the razors are not ebay specials, but have already been honed it should not take too many laps to set the bevel.

With a full hollow, the blade will flex enough with just the weight of a finger on the bevel where the ink is not being removed (warped). Ink is cheap… keep inking the bevel until you understand what the problem is.

Post non photos of the whole blade, both sides as close as you can, it may help.

E...440 has some great ideas. They were exactly what I was going to suggest.
Next step, after ink and tape.... Bin it for awhile until 'it' wants to play again !