Microbevels.

It is formed like told above.

I find that modern, hard 'chippy' steels sometimes benefit from a micro-bevel - it almost seems as if the traditional angle produces an edge that is too attenuated and weak, prone to micro-chipping, but adding another layer of tape often cures this.

If the steel formulation is up to snuff, then the edge produced traditionally should be plenty good enough - the micro-bevel is just another tool in the arsenal in my opinion. Some makers customarily use a smaller, secondary or micro-bevel, usually because the steel they use is ridiculously hard - over 62 rockwell steels are good candidates.

Regards,
Neil

I've had razors with secondary bevels and I didn't find them to shave any better than razors with single bevels.

I have to agree with Spendur. The only need for one is with a problem edge. And that doesn't always fix it. Just my limited experience. I have used them to see if I can get a better edge but drop back down either way. And this is with wedge type blades only.

Just starting out, I would not concern myself with such extraneous activities as putting a micro bevel on an edge. Your first concern should be getting comfortable with shaving and stropping. Learn the basics, right now you are trying to run without knowing how to walk. It is easy to get caught up in all the little trappings of an activity but don't concern yourself with those just yet. Where are you located? have you found a mentor close to you to help with learning and understanding yet? If not, then I would suggest doing so. Put your location in your profile so that we know where you are.

I have never felt an edge was better with a micro bevel than without it. YMMV and many do it regularly. I find the whole tape thing to be another PITA. I do tape wedges and razors with goldwash and decorative spines but not for shave quality but only to protect them. But I will say it wont hurt, just not worth the time to do IMO.

With the exception of wedges (which to me are shaving knives ;)) I am struggerling to see the benifit. There is so little steel behind the edge anyway that I just can't see a microbevel making any difference to the longevity of the edge, which is a microbevels primary function.

I can see how a microbevel could appear to make a huge difference if the edge its been put on isn't truly set and in that case you are really just masking over a poorly honed blade. Personally I think you are better off getting a smooth shaving edge without the use of a microbevel, after that then by all means give it a try. I could of cause be completely wrong.

Surely though if the microbevel angle works better, are you just not better off honing that angle from the off ?

As I said in my previous post I have, and still do use microbevel s extensively on knives and tools and they are very effective in that context. However there is far more metal on those edges than there is on a razor.

Forgive me for been sceptical but i am struggerling to see the benefit on a razor and just think for the most part all its doing is masking an unset bevel.

Having said that I am new to this whole razor honing game and my mind is open to accepted that I could very well be wrong ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike1011

With the exception of wedges (which to me are shaving knives ;)) I am struggerling to see the benifit. There is so little steel behind the edge anyway that I just can't see a microbevel making any difference to the longevity of the edge, which is a microbevels primary function.

I can see how a microbevel could appear to make a huge difference if the edge its been put on isn't truly set and in that case you are really just masking over a poorly honed blade. Personally I think you are better off getting a smooth shaving edge without the use of a microbevel, after that then by all means give it a try. I could of cause be completely wrong.

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I guess it is a case of 'suck it and see' before you dismiss the micro-bevel out of hand.

Just as a for instance (Hart is mentioned because it was among the last to exhibit this phenomenon, but TIs and Bohler Steels do it too, as well as others too numerous to mention) I have honed more than a few Hart razors, a fair proportion (though by no means all) began to micro-chip at around the 8k - 10k grits. You cannot see this with the naked eye, but as I make use of a 20x loupe during honing - a lot, I might add - I can see it.

Once you see it forming all along the bevel or in sporadic areas, you are on a hiding to nothing. Go back down the grits to remove it and work up the grits again, and it is still there. Pass the edge over a glass to kill it and any microfin that may be chipping and fall back to a fairly low grit and work your way up - it is still there. Be as light of hand as you can, keep going back to the previous grit hone for a few laps and move up again, and it might go. Strop it, and its back again. That particular metal formation cannot be taken any further. You can sometimes get rid of it by using chrome oxide, but I prefer not to use compounds if I can help it.

However, go right up to a finishing hone then micro-bevel the edge, and the problem often - not always - disappears. Funny thing is, on razors where this is apt to happen and that have come to me without any user-honing (ie, in factory-honed condition) there is often a trace of micro-bevel, ie, it is put on in the factory or by the custom razor maker (eg see Pixels post above).

Do you think they want to go to the extra work? I doubt it. If they do it, they see it as necessary. They are a lot wiser than me, so who am I to say that they are wrong?

I don't think they are wrong, however. I think that not all batches of steel are exactly alike in both formation, crystal formation and temper. It just so happens that every now and again you get these factors slightly aligned in a bad way, a chippy, micro-chip, too-hard metal way.

Suck it and see. Or, hone it and see, if you like. I have honed an awful lot of razors, and I have seen it. I'm not theorizing or repeating what anyone else has told me. Practical experience has led me to this conclusion, and I am positive that I am not the only one, I hope that one day you will join us, and the world will be as... ...aargh - John Lennon deviation! Apologies!

Regards,
Neil

PS: I agree with Bill - it does not make anything better, but it sure can stop things becoming worse!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I guess it is a case of 'suck it and see' before you dismiss the micro-bevel out of hand.

Just as a for instance (Hart is mentioned because it was among the last to exhibit this phenomenon, but TIs and Bohler Steels do it too, as well as others too numerous to mention) I have honed more than a few Hart razors, a fair proportion (though by no means all) began to micro-chip at around the 8k - 10k grits. You cannot see this with the naked eye, but as I make use of a 20x loupe during honing - a lot, I might add - I can see it.

Once you see it forming all along the bevel or in sporadic areas, you are on a hiding to nothing. Go back down the grits to remove it and work up the grits again, and it is still there. Pass the edge over a glass to kill it and any microfin that may be chipping and fall back to a fairly low grit and work your way up - it is still there. Be as light of hand as you can, keep going back to the previous grit hone for a few laps and move up again, and it might go. Strop it, and its back again. That particular metal formation cannot be taken any further. You can sometimes get rid of it by using chrome oxide, but I prefer not to use compounds if I can help it.

However, go right up to a finishing hone then micro-bevel the edge, and the problem often - not always - disappears. Funny thing is, on razors where this is apt to happen and that have come to me without any user-honing (ie, in factory-honed condition) there is often a trace of micro-bevel, ie, it is put on in the factory or by the custom razor maker (eg see Pixels post above).

Do you think they want to go to the extra work? I doubt it. If they do it, they see it as necessary. They are a lot wiser than me, so who am I to say that they are wrong?

I don't think they are wrong, however. I think that not all batches of steel are exactly alike in both formation, crystal formation and temper. It just so happens that every now and again you get these factors slightly aligned in a bad way, a chippy, micro-chip, too-hard metal way.

Suck it and see. Or, hone it and see, if you like. I have honed an awful lot of razors, and I have seen it. I'm not theorizing or repeating what anyone else has told me. Practical experience has led me to this conclusion, and I am positive that I am not the only one, I hope that one day you will join us, and the world will be as... ...aargh - John Lennon deviation! Apologies!

Regards,
Neil

PS: I agree with Bill - it does not make anything better, but it sure can stop things becoming worse!

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Interesting, if their steel is prone to microchipping at the lower bevel angles I wonder why they don't just put a steeper angle on the bevel to begin with. Maybe it chips regardless of the primary bevel angle and microbevel is used to hide that.....the mysteries of steel :)

Steeper angle equals less keen and less ease removing hair. If you have a razor that can handle an acute angle, then that's where you want to use it. A small change in the bevel angle to remove chipping doesn't usually make too much difference, but you don't want a razor that's 3 or 4 degrees above the norm.

It is MHBHO that if the manufacturer has to "tweak" the edge with a micro bevel on certain razors due to the characteristics of that batch of steel then there is something wrong and the razor should not be sold. How many novice users out there will know to put a micro bevel on it the next time it needs to be honed, for that matter, how many honemeisters will know to do it from the get go? As I see it, putting a micro bevel on a razor is just making an unacceptable adjustment to a razor just to get it out the door. It is rather like GM selling a bunch of "known" defective cars and letting the consumer deal with it down the road.