Relevance of stiction to 1st time honers and refreshing edge

Hi Guys, it occurred to me that there are a lot of questions about which hone should be acquired by a newbie as a touchup hone but after that what then.

I was refreshing an edge the other day and when I got the feeling we all know and love (coined fraise "stiction") I though righto a couple of more and I am done.

It also occurred that the feeling is a result of the right pressure and that it was a revelation the first time I felt the anomaly. Further to this the feeling is common on the progression from 1K onwards as an indicator to move to the next hone.

I would like to open the forum on your opinions in order to help the newbie’s out there as well as other indicators people look for when refreshing (shave test not withstanding).

Micron microscopes, HHT, TPT etc. are all debated hotly on the forum, I am looking to discuss the feel, sound and sight of water rippling on the hone that the perfect stroke produces.

If you are looking for a definition of stiction or the hotly debated reasons behind it see this thread and others: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ning-feel.html

I am feeling for the smoothness as the lap count grows. Stiction means I have to clean my hone or lap it some depending on how hard it is.

When it comes to hones I know enough to be dangerous but I am also relying less and less on anything but feel and the loupe. Feeling something in a refresh takes some serious senses.

There that should help start something :<0) :popcorn:

I agree with most of this. I'm looking to feel the slurry "smooth out", usually starts at about 25 strokes on finishers I have, and I usually give it a bit more. I'm also looking to NOT feel any roughness, chattering, "growling" or that one part of the stroke/blade feels different from another. Such misbehavior means the bevel/spine or parts thereof are not lapped flat to the hone and I'm not getting the best edge - though it might or might not shave O.K.

For example, I have razors that either by manufacture or more likely angled honing over the years, have spines that are thicker at the heel than further up the spine. if you hold such a blade 90 degrees to the stone, the stroke will not feel smooth and you can frequently observe a secondary bevel under hand magnification. You won't get the best edge under these conditions.

I look for stiction when bringing an edge up from mid-grits. To me, that is another sign that the bevel/spine is mated perfectly with the hone. I look for it less refreshing because I use much lighter slurry, strokes, etc.

When refreshing, I usually just do that by rote counting strokes. I've done it enough that if the edge is good and just needs a light refresh, there's no need to look for the signs I'd look for coming up from a bevel set/midgrit.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 10Pups

I am feeling for the smoothness as the lap count grows. Stiction means I have to clean my hone or lap it some depending on how hard it is.

When it comes to hones I know enough to be dangerous but I am also relying less and less on anything but feel and the loupe. Feeling something in a refresh takes some serious senses.

There that should help start something :<0) :popcorn:

---

Some stones are more prone to stiction than others, my Norton 8k can have that sometime, but my C12k REALLY has it.

As was said, depends on the stone and the size of the razor and spine. More steel on the hone will increase this. I use jnats and finish with slurry, I dont look for it and when I do find it, it usually means somethings amiss. My feedback is more a smooth feeling slurry that is really broken down. I also watch the slurry ride up on the blade, when this stops improving and the slurry is where I want it Im done. Taped spines will also have an effect here as less steel is on the stone.

Thanks for the pointers guys, have been reading a bit about slurry and how some prefer this finish from plain water. Of course with slurry there is no stiction so it goes to reason. Appreciate the input and look forward to experimenting with some of the suggestions.

You will note stiiction with slurry. It's a sign the slurry is breaking down and polishing.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve56

You will note stiiction with slurry. It's a sign the slurry is breaking down and polishing.

Cheers, Steve

---

Yes, definitely. Although to me, it means the slurry is no longer buffering the blade from the base stone.

That's a good thing Bill, LOL. As long as it still lubricates.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill3152

Yes, definitely. Although to me, it means the slurry is no longer buffering the blade from the base stone.

---

For me stiction is mostly a function of bevel width - I've never felt it on a full hollow with a small bevel, for example.

I don't really understand the physics of it but I imagine surface area plus surface topography (i.e. flatness) increases the "stictripical force" (TM Jimbo, 2014). It would be the latter you guys are using as a honing guide I'd guess.

But just keep in mind that you can make two hones stick together (e.g. when lapping) from stiction, and you would in no way construe that to mean you could shave with one of them! :) In addition, I have often had stiction occur between one of my wedge grinds and the top of my head when shaving it - this has occurred with dull blades too.

Not saying that looking for stiction is something you shouldn't do when honing. Merely pointing out that good stiction is simply an indication that two planes of sufficient surface area are both wet and flat and the air between them has been forced out. For stiction to be an indication that the edge is sharp/smooth/shaveable/etc requires other conditions to be met (cf "polished turd").

James.

Hmmm, so if I've never gotten to stiction on my C12k, then I may be doing it wrong? Roughly how many passes are you putting on your 12k before you get the feel? Are you taping?

full hollow blades with mininal bevels or wear will have a very weak feeling of stiction
if you use slurry I don't think you will feel it as it breaks the surface tension of the water
with or without tape it is the same
can't answer a number of passes as it is blade depending
a dry hone won't get it either

It's called capillary attraction.

Physics. a manifestation of surface tension by which the portion of the surface of a liquid coming in contact with a solid is elevated or depressed, depending on the adhesive or cohesive properties of the liquid.

Frank

QUOTE=JustAKnick;1396344]Hmmm, so if I've never gotten to stiction on my C12k, then I may be doing it wrong? Roughly how many passes are you putting on your 12k before you get the feel? Are you taping?[/QUOTE]

Not at all, the intention was not to say that if you do not feel stiction then you are doing it wrong. The intention was to find out what everyone feels or hears on the hone that indicates a good stroke or a sharp blade ready for the shave test. Of course the only true way to tell is with a shave. It just occurred to me that I had a certain feel I was looking for on my hones and when I got it the edge was close to ready. The intention of the thread was more for new honers to get a reference from a wider community one step on from, ok I have a hone that I can touch up a blade with, what now? Good point though that each hone feels and acts differently as well as each grind and differnt method acts differently. So we all have our own way of knowing, this is just to share those thoughts. I feel stiction and to me it means I am using the right pressure and the blade is almost ready to go to the next hone. I have not however touched up my near wedge yet and look forward to doing so.

@Jimbo... Dude, your post is hilarious. I'm left with this image of a big wedge stuck to your head as a result of honing so well...

Like licking a spoon and sticking it on your nose, I guess.

All depends on tongue grit

So, what some might deem 'stiction' could very well be a sign of upcoming wire-edge! Especially if up higher in the strokes.
JMO

It was a bit freaky the first time it happened, because I thought I had buried the edge in my skin and that was why it was hard to remove from my head.

James.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atchbo

@Jimbo... Dude, your post is hilarious. I'm left with this image of a big wedge stuck to your head as a result of honing so well...

Like licking a spoon and sticking it on your nose, I guess.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

For me stiction is mostly a function of bevel width - I've never felt it on a full hollow with a small bevel, for example.

I don't really understand the physics of it but I imagine surface area plus surface topography (i.e. flatness) increases the "stictripical force" (TM Jimbo, 2014). It would be the latter you guys are using as a honing guide I'd guess.

But just keep in mind that you can make two hones stick together (e.g. when lapping) from stiction, and you would in no way construe that to mean you could shave with one of them! :) In addition, I have often had stiction occur between one of my wedge grinds and the top of my head when shaving it - this has occurred with dull blades too.

Not saying that looking for stiction is something you shouldn't do when honing. Merely pointing out that good stiction is simply an indication that two planes of sufficient surface area are both wet and flat and the air between them has been forced out. For stiction to be an indication that the edge is sharp/smooth/shaveable/etc requires other conditions to be met (cf "polished turd").

James.

---

You Ain't an "Advisor" for nuthing, Mate!

Bruce

Thanks Bruce. Actually, I think I am an advisor for nothing, but don't tell Gugi or else he'll make be put on the hot pants again.

James.

Gawd. I want to be an Advisor SO bad! :D
yer doing a FINE job! :tu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Gawd. I want to be an Advisor SO bad! :D
yer doing a FINE job! :tu

---

A Papel decree has just been issued designating Sir Sharptonn an advisor to the Court of Saint Jimbo the Aussie. His primary duties are to ascertain, among other duties, the proper degree of temperature of the Holy Tea Water and the sharpness of the Saint's edges for those time when said Saint is otherwise occupied.

I liked that for some reason.... Not doing the hot pants, tho! :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razorfeld

A Papel decree has just been issued designating Sir Sharptonn an advisor to the Court of Saint Jimbo the Aussie. His primary duties are to ascertain, among other duties, the proper degree of temperature of the Holy Tea Water and the sharpness of the Saint's edges for those time when said Saint is otherwise occupied.

---

His primary task, however, is to tenderly rub a healthful unguent onto the Saint's thighs to soothe the chafing from those damn hot pants!

James.

Na, nope, noway, ain't a'gonna do it! Nobody saw me here...I wasn't here!
Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Na, nope, noway, ain't a'gonna do it! Nobody saw me here...I wasn't here!
Bruce

---

Why do all my Acolytes say that...?

James.

For which you get a Mars bar and a can of coke??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

His primary task, however, is to tenderly rub a healthful unguent onto the Saint's thighs to soothe the chafing from those damn hot pants!

James.

---