Thread: Relevance of stiction to 1st time honers and refreshing edge

Hi Guys, it occurred to me that there are a lot of questions about which hone should be acquired by a newbie as a touchup hone but after that what then.

I was refreshing an edge the other day and when I got the feeling we all know and love (coined fraise "stiction") I though righto a couple of more and I am done.

It also occurred that the feeling is a result of the right pressure and that it was a revelation the first time I felt the anomaly. Further to this the feeling is common on the progression from 1K onwards as an indicator to move to the next hone.

I would like to open the forum on your opinions in order to help the newbie’s out there as well as other indicators people look for when refreshing (shave test not withstanding).

Micron microscopes, HHT, TPT etc. are all debated hotly on the forum, I am looking to discuss the feel, sound and sight of water rippling on the hone that the perfect stroke produces.

If you are looking for a definition of stiction or the hotly debated reasons behind it see this thread and others: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ning-feel.html

I am feeling for the smoothness as the lap count grows. Stiction means I have to clean my hone or lap it some depending on how hard it is.

When it comes to hones I know enough to be dangerous but I am also relying less and less on anything but feel and the loupe. Feeling something in a refresh takes some serious senses.

There that should help start something :<0)

I agree with most of this. I'm looking to feel the slurry "smooth out", usually starts at about 25 strokes on finishers I have, and I usually give it a bit more. I'm also looking to NOT feel any roughness, chattering, "growling" or that one part of the stroke/blade feels different from another. Such misbehavior means the bevel/spine or parts thereof are not lapped flat to the hone and I'm not getting the best edge - though it might or might not shave O.K.

For example, I have razors that either by manufacture or more likely angled honing over the years, have spines that are thicker at the heel than further up the spine. if you hold such a blade 90 degrees to the stone, the stroke will not feel smooth and you can frequently observe a secondary bevel under hand magnification. You won't get the best edge under these conditions.

I look for stiction when bringing an edge up from mid-grits. To me, that is another sign that the bevel/spine is mated perfectly with the hone. I look for it less refreshing because I use much lighter slurry, strokes, etc.

When refreshing, I usually just do that by rote counting strokes. I've done it enough that if the edge is good and just needs a light refresh, there's no need to look for the signs I'd look for coming up from a bevel set/midgrit.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by 10Pups

I am feeling for the smoothness as the lap count grows. Stiction means I have to clean my hone or lap it some depending on how hard it is.

When it comes to hones I know enough to be dangerous but I am also relying less and less on anything but feel and the loupe. Feeling something in a refresh takes some serious senses.

There that should help start something :<0)

Some stones are more prone to stiction than others, my Norton 8k can have that sometime, but my C12k REALLY has it.

As was said, depends on the stone and the size of the razor and spine. More steel on the hone will increase this. I use jnats and finish with slurry, I dont look for it and when I do find it, it usually means somethings amiss. My feedback is more a smooth feeling slurry that is really broken down. I also watch the slurry ride up on the blade, when this stops improving and the slurry is where I want it Im done. Taped spines will also have an effect here as less steel is on the stone.

Thanks for the pointers guys, have been reading a bit about slurry and how some prefer this finish from plain water. Of course with slurry there is no stiction so it goes to reason. Appreciate the input and look forward to experimenting with some of the suggestions.

You will note stiiction with slurry. It's a sign the slurry is breaking down and polishing.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

You will note stiiction with slurry. It's a sign the slurry is breaking down and polishing.

Cheers, Steve

Yes, definitely. Although to me, it means the slurry is no longer buffering the blade from the base stone.

That's a good thing Bill, LOL. As long as it still lubricates.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by bill3152

Yes, definitely. Although to me, it means the slurry is no longer buffering the blade from the base stone.

For me stiction is mostly a function of bevel width - I've never felt it on a full hollow with a small bevel, for example.

I don't really understand the physics of it but I imagine surface area plus surface topography (i.e. flatness) increases the "stictripical force" (TM Jimbo, 2014). It would be the latter you guys are using as a honing guide I'd guess.

But just keep in mind that you can make two hones stick together (e.g. when lapping) from stiction, and you would in no way construe that to mean you could shave with one of them! In addition, I have often had stiction occur between one of my wedge grinds and the top of my head when shaving it - this has occurred with dull blades too.

Not saying that looking for stiction is something you shouldn't do when honing. Merely pointing out that good stiction is simply an indication that two planes of sufficient surface area are both wet and flat and the air between them has been forced out. For stiction to be an indication that the edge is sharp/smooth/shaveable/etc requires other conditions to be met (cf "polished turd").

James.