Honing help on a couple razors please

I've recently gotten into the whole honing thing. I struggled at first but once I lapped the stones smoother and learned how lightly to touch them I started getting some proper results. I even managed to put a pretty nice edge on a fully blunt W&B wedge. However, I am having a couple issues:

- First is a Geneva hollow. It seems the edge has an arch to it. Laying on a flat surface, one side the belly doesn't touch the hone, only the heel and toe. Is there any way to fix this? Should I just X the edge across the stone so that the heel runs off the edge and the middle touches? I have the same issues on the strop.

- Secondly I have a German 5/8" wedge which doesn't want to take an edge. I had it repaired by Glen and it shaved nicely for 2 years with regular strop work but it was in need of a touch up. Stupidly, I thought it would be a good idea to start on the 4k and work up, which I should have just touched it up. Either way, it doesn't seem to want to take an edge and I can't figure out why. The edge does have a smile to the end of it as a result of removing a chip, so that could be confusing my inexperienced skills. Any advice?

FYI, I'm using a Norton 4k/8k and a Shapton 16k.

For the Geneva, yes, you will need to do an X-stroke. The easiest way to do this will be to imagine, or actually draw with pencil, a parallel line about an inch from the side of the hone nearest your honing hand. As you hone, maintain contact between the razor's edge and that narrow strip of the hone. Watch the movement of water in that strip to confirm that you are maintaining contact.

For the wedge, did you use tape? If so, how many layers?

Thanks for the tip. I'll give that a shot. Same on the strop? Just run off the edge to hit the middle?

Yes, I used one layer. It doesn't look like I've made the bevel any wider than it was before. Also, it seems sharper coming off the 4k than the 8k, but even at that its not as sharp as either of the other blades at that stage.
Thanks!

Something to add to ensure you are contacting the entire bevel, take a sharpie to the bevel, make a couple x strokes and see where the sharpie remains. This is obviously where you aren't making contact on the stones.

The strop should have enough flex to accommodate the warped blade. At least I've never noticed one that was not getting stropped properly. On the other hand, I may not have noticed the lack of contact. Go ahead and do an x-stroke when you strop. I always do that.

You might want to try two layers of tape. First though, I would suggest you use the marker test to see if the single layer of tape is allowing the stone to make contact with the very edge of the bevel (aka, the edge).

Edit: Randy showed up at my door just before I finished typing this so that is why my post is redundant to shooter's above.

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Originally Posted by no7fish

Thanks for the tip. I'll give that a shot. Same on the strop? Just run off the edge to hit the middle?

Thanks!

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Does this razor have a frown?

No frown that I can discern. I have had my best results stropping as lightly as I can manage but I'll try a touch more pressure to see if I can get full contact.

On the wedge, the sharpie trick will most likely illustrate my shortcomings!
Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Does this razor have a frown?

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Thanks. I mistakenly immediately pictured a warped blade but a frown should always be the first consideration.

Hold the blade perpendicular, and lightly, to a known flat hone in front of a light. Any light coming through the gap between the blade and the hone will reveal the profile of the edge.

The X stroke is not a corner to corner stroke as most think, it is really just a pressure shift, so the contact point remains in the middle of the stone as it transfers across the edge from heel to toe.

The stroke is much more shallow, so the heel does not come off the stone until about the half way point and the toe end up in the middle of the stone not coming off the opposite, lower corner with a very slight rocking motion.

Do not use more pressure that, is never the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

For the Geneva, yes, you will need to do an X-stroke. The easiest way to do this will be to imagine, or actually draw with pencil, a parallel line about an inch from the side of the hone nearest your honing hand. As you hone, maintain contact between the razor's edge and that narrow strip of the hone. Watch the movement of water in that strip to confirm that you are maintaining contact.

For the wedge, did you use tape? If so, how many layers?

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Do you think an x stroke will help here? If the heel and toe are touching but the center is not, I'm wondering if the rolling of pressure is going to correct that. I imagine that the rolling pressure will be very hard when the end points are making contact. This sounds like a candidate for a very narrow hone. Thoughts?

Can you give us a picture of this razor? It's really hard to give advice on geometry issues when we don't have a clear idea of what the issues are. Sometimes they are hard enough to figure out with the razor in hand.

Here are a couple pics of each. You can see the Geneva actually has the slightest of smile. Attachment 189582

Here is a pic showing the warp
Attachment 189583
You can see a hint of shadow under the middle.


PS: when I mentioned more pressure I was referring only to the strop. In reference to the comment that strops usually conform the blade. Are there varying opinions on this? I have to admit I have had best results with as little pressure as I can discern.

Here is the other razor which doesn't seem to sharpen properly. I can put an edge on two other razors so I'm thinking it is the degree of curve to the edge which is beyond my skill.

Attachment 189584

Attachment 189585

The Geneva looks like a tough one. You can probably get 2/3 of it by honing with the last third (heel) off the hone. But the problem is going to be getting the heel done without RE-honing the toe. This one requires someone more experienced than I.

The Geneva has a bit of a smile but should hone just fine.

The Geneva just needs a bevel set on your 4k, using an X stroke. As said tape it and ink the bevel to make sure you are hitting the whole bevel and shifting the pressure from heel to toe.

The German razor is in need of repair, it is a lot more than a simple touch up or a plain honing. It needs reshaping to remove the heel hook, left unattended that hook will cut you. This may be something you want to send out as it will require some tools you may not have and some experience to do correctly.

I would reshape the heel similar to the Geneva and make the heel portion smile the same degree of arc as the toe, so it looks symmetrical.

Make a cardboard tracing of the toe and trace it onto the heel with a sharpie, then with a diamond file grind it to the ink and correct the heel hook at the same time.
You will be removing a fair amount of material and will need a Diamond file or plate in the 300-600 grit range and a 1k to re shape and set the new bevel. It will also have quite a smile that also will take some experience to hone.

As far as the pressure statement, I was referring to your stropping, do not add pressure when stropping. You should use lite pressure when stropping, if you use pressure, you will roll or break the edge.

On the smiling razor you will need to strop with a bit of an X stroke to strop the whole edge.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The Geneva has a bit of a smile but should hone just fine.

The Geneva just needs a bevel set on your 4k, using an X stroke. As said tape it and ink the bevel to make sure you are hitting the whole bevel and shifting the pressure from heel to toe.

The German razor is in need of repair, it is a lot more than a simple touch up or a plain honing. It needs reshaping to remove the heel hook, left unattended that hook will cut you. This may be something you want to send out as it will require some tools you may not have and some experience to do correctly.

I would reshape the heel similar to the Geneva and make the heel portion smile the same degree of arc as the toe, so it looks symmetrical.

Make a cardboard tracing of the toe and trace it onto the heel with a sharpie, then with a diamond file grind it to the ink and correct the heel hook at the same time.
You will be removing a fair amount of material and will need a Diamond file or plate in the 300-600 grit range and a 1k to re shape and set the new bevel. It will also have quite a smile that also will take some experience to hone.

As far as the pressure statement, I was referring to your stropping, do not add pressure when stropping. You should use lite pressure when stropping, if you use pressure, you will roll or break the edge.

On the smiling razor you will need to strop with a bit of an X stroke to strop the whole edge.

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Thanks for the advice Euclid. I'm a bit confused as I assure you the entire bevel is not hitting the stone on the Geneva. The middle is clearly not touching when the heel and toe are on the stone. Do I just need to keep honing until it is all flat to the stone? Sacrificing material from the ends to get the middle down?

If you use a straight stroke then the heel and toe will only touch the stone, but if you use a proper X stroke, it will shift the pressure across the whole edge from the heel to the toe, like honing a curved knife.

It is a very subtle pressure shifts not a big swooping stroke from corner to corner.

Start with the toe on the upper right corner, begin a slight downward angle so the heel stays on the stone until the half way point, finish the stroke with the toe in the middle of the stone at the end, not off the lower left corner.

This will give you a slight pressure shift where a small amount of the bevel is on the stone at a time, but honing the bevel from heel to toe.
Do not use more pressure.

Those two types of strokes (X-stroke with heel forward, and rolling X-stroke) will be most effective in honing your Geneva.
Notice how the razor leaves the hone almost all the way out to the toe.
Those are not easy strokes to do and will need some practice to get them right, but do not get discouraged.
http://youtu.be/JSEUlFn2h64

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Do you think an x stroke will help here? If the heel and toe are touching but the center is not, I'm wondering if the rolling of pressure is going to correct that. I imagine that the rolling pressure will be very hard when the end points are making contact. This sounds like a candidate for a very narrow hone. Thoughts?

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Yes, I do think it will help. Narrow hones were all the rage several years ago for dealing with problematic razors. They fell away quickly when some of us figured out that the stroke done on a narrow hone was the same that could be done on a wide hone. This is why my earlier post in this thread suggested drawing or imagining a parallel line about an inch from the edge of the hone. If the honer focuses only on that area, and makes sure that contact is made in that area by watching the water wave front travel along the length of the blade from heel to toe in that area of the hone, then a successful rolling of pressure will be accomplished.

As Euclid pointed out, the x stroke does not HAVE to be a full corner to corner trip for the toe of the blade. The x stroke is more about SUBTLE pressure transfer from the heel to the toe during the stroke, and the entire blade can stay on the hone and still accomplish this. I have just found it easier to teach this by creating the "virtual narrow hone" with the parallel line. An imaginary narrow hone accomplishes almost everything a real one can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Those two types of strokes (X-stroke with heel forward, and rolling X-stroke) will be most effective in honing your Geneva.
Notice how the razor leaves the hone almost all the way out to the toe.
Those are not easy strokes to do and will need some practice to get them right, but do not get discouraged.
http://youtu.be/JSEUlFn2h64

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Thank you Stefan.