1k/3k pyramid honing

Good day sirs.

I've been setting a few bevels recently and feel I'm learning all the time, a thought come to me about using a 1k/3k or 1k/5k pyramid to set a bevel that has no issues. This came about because I brought a CV Heljestrand before Christmas and it appeared to be unused, under magnification there was no bevel at all. I put on one layer of tape on and started with circles and x strokes on my 1k chosera with slurry, after about 3 sets, still no bevel. This steel is hard, I'd like to think of it as the Chuck Norris of razors! Anyway I tried a few sets doing 45 degree x strokes with and without slurry. I eventually set the Heli, it passed LRT and MMT and under a loupe looked very nice however it wouldn't cut arm hair, If it cant cut arm hair it cant cut face hair. I decided to go on my 5k super and after two sets of twenty it was popping hairs very well indeed. Is this just one of those things as the 5k is refining the edge or would doing a 1k and 3k/5k pyramid help make the process easier or quicker with hard steel?
I know I didn't actually do a pyramid but I cant help thinking it would have helped or am I thinking too much into this?

Many thanks for any help

Mark

What's MMT?

To answer your question, I don't think a 1k 5k pyramid would help set the bevel. I have never done a stroke count based pyramid, but I often step backwards a stone if I feel the need. My experience with back stepping is that the lower grit stone behaves finer on the back step than it did in the normal progression. So I would think in a 1k 5k pyramid the 1k would be behaving more fine than it's 1k grit and not be speeding things up over just staying on the 1k. The 1k 5k pyramid would of course be faster than setting the bevel at 5k except for the extra time of switching back and forth.

I don't have a lot of experience with slurries, but the little I do have makes me think that they round the edge a bit when done at low grits. I think they definitely speed the process but need to be followed with a fair amount of no slurry work to get back to the actual edge.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

What's MMT?

To answer your question, I don't think a 1k 5k pyramid would help set the bevel.

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I agree; and to that I will add what's LRT?

Bevel setting is the removal of steel until the two planes we call bevels meet in a single line to form the edge. Everything after the bevel set is just refining the edge. The tests are done just to confirm that the bevel is fully set.

Utopian,

I think LRT is light reflecting test. What are your favorite tests at bevel set?

Thanks gents.
MMT magic marker test. LRT Light reflection test.
It was just a thought, I am having a play around with some razors and am finding some easy to hone and others, although with no issues, are a pain to to bevel set. Still going to have a go and see what I find.
Might try: 20x1k 5x5k, 15x1k 10x5k, 10x1k 15x5k and so on.
Just like messing around with razors!

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These are not my photos but they are the same Zeiss stereomicroscope and Brock Magiscope that I have.

I use my thumb but I trust my scopes.

You can't see. If a bevel is set.. Thee are many tests to check to see if the bevel is set.. Thumb pad test thumb nail,test. The thumb nail test IMO is the easiest to learn and I still use it. If u pass the tnt and u get certain feedback from the hones such as water easily riding up the edge .. It's time to move on.. Do a google search in the search bar here for thumb nail,test it will explain it better

I can see if a bevel is set.

I have been around a few excellent honers who thought their bevels were fully set but I could see that it was not completely done. I'm taking nothing away from their abilities, but a microscopic examination can pick up things that even an expert thumb cannot. I can and do use the standard tests, but a scope is a valuable aid.

Utopian,

What are some key things you look for when checking for bevel set under mag. I would understand seeing the stria going all the way to what may look like the apex, but are there any other things u look for? I have in many cases looked for only that under 45x, and it looked as if the stria was to the end,but I was missing the bevel set slightly. So what could i be missing?

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Utopian,

What are some key things you look for when checking for bevel set under mag. I would understand seeing the stria going all the way to what may look like the apex, but are there any other things u look for? I have in many cases looked for only that under 45x, and it looked as if the stria was to the end,but I was missing the bevel set slightly. So what could i be missing?

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Not to answer for Utopian, but I use a light source shining 'edge on' to pick up any reflections from the edge. For me, I find 100x to be the sweet spot of seeing enough detail and still being able to inspect the whole edge from both sides and with different light angles if I want in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm looking forward to reading Utopian's response as I've only been using a scope a short time and I am still learning.

Yes, you can…. Well actually you can’t, but you can see when it is not set. You will see light reflecting back when the bevels are not meeting if you look down on the edge. A completely set bevel just looks black and fuzzy, you need more than 600X to see the edge.

If you can look straight down on the edge and not see any reflections, then the bevel is set. Often you may see a dot or two, micro-chips, a few more laps and your there.

Stay on the 1k doing circles or half laps until you no long get light reflection from the edge, 45X is plenty, you can even see them with the naked eye if your eyes or glasses are good, magnification make it easier.

It is not unusual for a 1k to not cut hair, the edge while set may be very ragged, be aware not all hair will cut or at least will cut differently on different edges, which makes the hair test unreliable.

Here is an un-set bevel in the top pic and an almost set bevel in the second pic. See the white line in the upper right side between the red (tape).

In the second pic the small dots of white are micro chip and this bevel is close enough to move up or 10 more lite finish laps will seal the deal.


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As I've stated many times, and as you already know, a fully set bevel is the conversion of a U shaped convergence of the bevel planes into a perfect V along the entire length of the blade.

When you lay a blade down and observe one bevel, your goal is, as you said, to observe the stria reach to the apex of the bevel. Unfortunately with a regular microscope the view is mostly limited to two dimensions. When you observe the letter V from the side, you cannot tell if the two sides actually reach each other or if they are separated by a flat plateau. You can only see this if the plane of focus of the scope is able to be raised enough to allow the raising of the blade to see the around the end of the bevel. You want to look at the edge itself in order to assess it.

Without a microscope the best way to do this is to hold the blade with the edge up and look for reflections from a bright light. A perfect edge will not reflect any light. Any small flat plateaus will reflect light.

Pyramid is more of a refreshing tool for the novice, if you know you need a full bevel set, e.g. chips or damage then, bite the bullet and go to the 1K and stay on it till you are absolutely sure it is set.

If the bevels are flat, and the edge is just not meeting like the razor in the photos, an 8 or 4k with circles will quickly bring the bevels together, as you found with the 5k.

What you have to be sure of is, that the bevel is COMPLETELY set, hair test will no tell you that, because you are only testing 1 micron of the edge at a time.

When you move up prematurely almost always, the bevel will not be completely set, unless you do a lot of laps or circles and look at it. There is no question about it. Looking at it will tell you.. if it is, or not.

The photos are 20X photos, if you rock the spine a few mm’s and don’t see light, your there.

Try stropping on linen, nylon or canvas 10 lite laps, between stones to smooth the edge quicker, so the next stone just hones good steel.

Medium pressure to bevel set, lite pressure to polish and weight of blade pressure to finish, lite pressure to strop.

Stropping is where most novice guys ruin an edge, too much pressure will quickly ruin an edge.

Thank you for all your help. Theoretically setting a bevel is very simple and in practice, with a no issue razor, also simple. The skill set starts when uneven spine wear etc comes into play. I think I have been too conserned with cutting arm hair on the 1k and over complicating things with new ideas. As I said I enjoy learning and was just trying out some ideas.

Mark

The hardest part of honing is learning to hone the razor the way it is. Most razors are not flat and straight. Bevel setting verification is easy once someone shows you how. The first thumbnail test is like the heavens opened up for me anyway.