Honing my custom french point razor issue

Ok, here is the issue. I built this razor myself. All is well . I tried to Hone it and this is what I am discovering , maybe someone could point me in the right direction or tell me if my idea to correct moving forward ?
1. I used X strokes to hone this razor . I have the Norton system. 220/1000 stone and 4000/8000 stone, chromium oxide on my strop and leather strop. I found after honing that the toe of my razor down to half way down the blade is not sharp but the heel is shave ready perfect. So , what I think I need to do and correct me if I am wrong is sine the French point is so so long and the blade tapers down from spine to edge is to turn the blade while honing so that the thickest part of the spine stays in contact with the bevel and thus a consistent hone all the way down the edge ?
am I correct. All input welcome .Attachment 190976 bare in mind this image is not after honing but before . The picture is just for showing the style of razor "French point" .
I did shave my neck with it and the only part that was shave ready was the heel and up about an inch or 2 from there as I said . I cant wait to make it all shave ready , very exciting to create something for the first time and use it .

A rolling X-stroke that ends at the tip of the spine is what you want to use. If you don't know what this is I suggest you do some reading in the library section. It may be helpful for you to put some Sharpie on both the bevel and the spine where they will be contacting the stone. Your objective, should you accept it, *wink wink* is to reposition (sort of rock) the razor as you hone so that it makes contact all the way across the spine and bevel from heel to toe on every stroke.

thank you so much for this . I will look into it thoroughly. what I am seeing now on my straight razor is that the heel has a very fine almost not noticeable bevel. but the toe , the bevel is much larger in comparison . So, hopefully with research and honing it properly I can get an even shave ready edge.

Since you built it yourself you are going to need to even it all up

Just like a restoration,,, coming off of wheels leaves a pretty uneven edge,, both in height and thickness..

You will need to set the bevel, kill the bevel, and re-set it a few times to get the cutting edge all even once it is even then you hone through for your shaving edge..


I have threads on here about dealing with these issues, I will try and find them for you


Read this one, it is about grind thickness issues

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-set-pics.html


Another to take a look at that should help you

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-you-leap.html

I appreciate your help. The blade is almost an 8/8. Maybe slightly larger so that makes sense what your saying that if toe to spine is 8/8 and heel to spine more,then the bevil will be uneven. That as well as honing it correctly. Ex. Rolling x stroke as sugested. Make sense?

Yes the rolling X and the Heel forward sweeping X are going to be your friends, But you are still going to have to go through the Bevel set, dulling and Bevel set routine to get it all evened up.. Pics of the bevel as it stands would help :)

Here are a few pics

3rd pictures shows the uneven bevel

Yes you are going to have to put in the time getting that evened up,,, How close to perfect the bevel is going to be will depend on how straight your grind is..

Keep in mind that all razors are not perfect, people would like them to be, but honestly many have slight warpage and grind imperfections that keep the bevels from being these perfect even lines :)

Even up the bevel as best as you can, then move on and get her shave ready

so the steps I can see are this . Now that I am at the computer I can type more. phone text is slow.
1. grind off the bevel completely . Maybe just run it along sand paper till its gone and everything is even . which may make the blade 8/8 perfect from heel to toe thus making it easier to hone ? then , any additional measurements I need to make . I do have a micrometer . I suppose I could measure spine width from one end to the other , making sure it is the same all the way down the spine. it should be 1/4 inch as that is what I started with for steel , but it may be slightly less . thus, a flat surface to make honing more accurate along the edge ? then measure from spine to blade all the way down with my micrometer as well to see that it is in fact 8/8 all the way down the blade ? All of which will ensure an even bevel . Then and only then start a new bevel with correct rolling x and sweeping x strokes ?
sound like a plan ? I am new to this so I am sure there have been countless posts on this through the years. So cool there is a place to find out all this info . very grateful .

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

I appreciate your help. The blade is almost an 8/8. Maybe slightly larger so that makes sense what your saying that if toe to spine is 8/8 and heel to spine more,then the bevil will be uneven. That as well as honing it correctly. Ex. Rolling x stroke as sugested. Make sense?

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I'm not really following the above post, but I am interested in the topic.

I've never honed a French Point, but I have made several razors. It always appeared to me that cutting the spine short as in a French point was a bad idea from a honing ease and grinding ease perspective, since the spine is the guide for honing and grinding. If I were to make one, I think I would shorten the spine as late in the process as possible so that I would have the guide for most of the grinding. Since your edge and spine are straight you should be able to establish a bevel on flat hones and then use the bevel reveal to straighten out your grind if necessary.

cant say I know what a "bevel reveal is" ? But I understand the rest . it seems simple enough to always keep the thickest point of the spine on the hone. And to do that , make a sweeping x stroke . so we will see. I like all the input though . thanks for it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

so the steps I can see are this . Now that I am at the computer I can type more. phone text is slow.
1. grind off the bevel completely . Maybe just run it along sand paper till its gone and everything is even . which may make the blade 8/8 perfect from heel to toe thus making it easier to hone ? then , any additional measurements I need to make . I do have a micrometer . I suppose I could measure spine width from one end to the other , making sure it is the same all the way down the spine. it should be 1/4 inch as that is what I started with for steel , but it may be slightly less . thus, a flat surface to make honing more accurate along the edge ? then measure from spine to blade all the way down with my micrometer as well to see that it is in fact 8/8 all the way down the blade ? All of which will ensure an even bevel . Then and only then start a new bevel with correct rolling x and sweeping x strokes ?
sound like a plan ? I am new to this so I am sure there have been countless posts on this through the years. So cool there is a place to find out all this info . very grateful .

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I feel you are overthinking this :(

Hone the bevel,, make VERY SMALL adjustments to your honing, dull the edge on the corner of your stone, Re-hone and set the bevel, repeat SLOWLY until the bevel is to your liking and move on :) It will only get so perfect, once the bevel is fully set and as even as possible move on...

This may or may not happen it one sitting,,, I just finished a Vintage razor over the weekend that took 6 bevel set attempts to get right over 3 days time, don't try and grind the crap outta the razor all at once, learn now to walk away and take your time..

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

cant say I know what a "bevel reveal is" ?

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The reveal is the part that your seeing as uneven.

If the spine is straight and even and the edge is parallel to it. The uneven bevel area would show that there is an uneven grind on the hollows, hence my use of the term "reveal" .

Nice looking razor by the way.

I agree with Glen on the overthinking part. I would not grind off the bevel you have. You are most of the way to where you need to be now.

If it were me. I would tape the edge that you have now, hold it flat on a flat hone and see if the spine is contacting the hone evenly using a marker on the spine. If you have even contact on both sides of the spine then you know that the spine is parallel to your existing edge.

yes, I have been guilty of over thinking things in the past. Part of my nature, especially when I get fixated on something new. And in this case , a really cool, imho , thing. So, thank you so much for clarification ! Dull edge first ? I will tape edge and check spine flatness first to make sure it is in fact flat . How dull to make edge ? Eliminate bevel ? Or just make dull a little. I know it's 0.008 thick steel along the edge . But it sounds like by resetting the bevel in multiple sessions , which will make the razor bevel "self adjust" .

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

yes, I have been guilty of over thinking things in the past. Part of my nature, especially when I get fixated on something new. And in this case , a really cool, imho , thing. So, thank you so much for clarification ! Dull edge first ? I will tape edge and check spine flatness first to make sure it is in fact flat . How dull to make edge ? Eliminate bevel ? Or just make dull a little. I know it's 0.008 thick steel along the edge . But it sounds like by resetting the bevel in multiple sessions , which will make the razor bevel "self adjust" .

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I agree about the "really cool" part. Razor geometry is much more cerebral than it would appear to an outsider.

You said that you know the blade is .008" along the edge. The fact that the bevel is wider at the toe in that third picture "reveals" to me that the blade is thicker in this area. The other possibility is that the razor is warped. In the warped case, the bevel reveal on the opposite side of the toe would be narrow almost to the point of non-existence. There is nothing really horrible about uneven bevel reveals other than aesthetics and the fact that IMO they make honing a little more difficult just because there is more steel to remove in the wider areas

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

How dull to make edge ? Eliminate bevel ? Or just make dull a little.

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I don't want to put words in Glen's mouth, but, to me, the idea of dulling the edge is so that you can verify that you are getting to the very apex on a subsequent bevel reset. I lightly dull on granite, just enough so that the edge fails the TNT.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I feel you are overthinking this :(

Hone the bevel,, make VERY SMALL adjustments to your honing, dull the edge on the corner of your stone, Re-hone and set the bevel, repeat SLOWLY until the bevel is to your liking and move on :) It will only get so perfect, once the bevel is fully set and as even as possible move on...

This may or may not happen it one sitting,,, I just finished a Vintage razor over the weekend that took 6 bevel set attempts to get right over 3 days time, don't try and grind the crap outta the razor all at once, learn now to walk away and take your time..

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As Glen said, 'Learn to walk away". I wish I had more than once. Instead of walking away I would get bull headed and say "I'm going to get this SOB sharp or else". Well, the 'or else' won more than once and I ended up ruining more than one razor. I've learned since that nothing can be rushed when it comes to straight razors, fast equals 'Whoooops!

I will post pics in a while. worked on it again. bevel on one side is nice and even , the other side tip of razor has large bevel and the other end has next to nothing . warped blade ? maybe put it on the 400 grit for the end , thin it out. the tip is at .009 and the heel is .007 . I did a check on my gauge . I mean obviously to much metal in contact with the hone makes a large bevel. simple. But still haven't measured spine to edge down the blade to see if it is even all the way . may have something to do with the issue ? Attachment 191044Attachment 191045 . Ok so here they are , you will see one side even , one side not . You will see the one side that is not even clearly. the heel of that side is so so sharp . the tip of the razor down about an inch is not shave ready , the rest is very shave ready . It looks to me , at least in the pictures that the tip of the blade from spine to edge is wider than the rest of the blade to spine but i will need to use my measuring device to check .

Honestly the bevel is looking pretty darn good from what I see in the pics..

Just keep working it slow and steady try the Magic Marker and see how you are doing with the color contrast

Bevel set, draw it 3-4 times lightly on the corner of the stone, Re-set the bevel and repeat until you get it where you want..

But I like what I am seeing there :tu

thanks for the encouragment. it will be nice when its shave ready all the way on the blade. explain the magic marker thing again. , mark it on the bevel ?

Yes just color both sides of the bevel (Black or Red are my goto colors)

Do a few light strokes on each side and see how your stoke is covering the bevel :)

thanks for the advice gssixgun. I will do the color test tonight . I wish I had a few days off to work on this . I am used to being patient though so no worries there. I just want to get a shave ready edge on the entire bevel . I will continue to dull, reset bevel, hone etc till I get it where I want it . apart from that I have been pleased with the process considering I don't have an expensive grinder and other tools , yet it still came out pretty nice :) . As I move along in the coming days I will continue to post pics of progress.

The first bevel on a new razor is very important, really the most important honing the razor will receive as you are setting the foundation. You are dealing with "corrective honing" all the way. The first honing can take hours & LOTS of tape. I normally use two layers of tape, replacing the top layer quite often as you wear through it. Pressure is your friend as you are grinding more than you are honing. So far it's looking good, just get those bevels right and even, the honing will follow quite nicely.

Looking good.

Ok , now you are making me think shooter . 2 layers of tape , pressure ? I guess questions I have are these. what grit to start with 220 or 1000 ? How much pressure ? and keep going till bevel is even and let the blade self correct ? The more details I can get the better understand you as this is all new info to me :)

A lot of guys will tell you don't go below 1k unless you are doing repairs like removing chips, others say never go below 1k. I have gone to 220 before but you are really removing metal pretty quick, it comes off quicker than you think and once its off you can't put it back. The 1k will take longer but you have more control on amount of metal being removed. I have killed the bevel on a razor several times before getting it even. As shooter said, once you get the bevel the way you want the rest of the honing falls into place. Bevel setting is the most important part of the honing process.

Just take your time, do it like shooter and Glen say and I believe you will have one fantastic shaver when you are finished, something to enjoy for many years down the road and be proud of.

well, you were correct. I went to 220 figuring to speed up the process and it took off a lot of metal, more than I would have liked . But still ok. I will try to hone it tonight to finish. I think the blade is ever so slightly warped causing the uneven hone wear. Still, a first razor for me that "should" actually work . haha ... And to think I have 2 more from heat treat that have yet to be finish ground. thanks to all for your advice . I have learned a lot . Can't wait to keep going .

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Originally Posted by drmccubx

Ok , now you are making me think shooter . 2 layers of tape , pressure ? I guess questions I have are these. what grit to start with 220 or 1000 ? How much pressure ? and keep going till bevel is even and let the blade self correct ? The more details I can get the better understand you as this is all new info to me :)

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May sound crazy, but think about this blade as a knife for just this and only this initial honing. You are still shaping the blade into a razor, so you can use pressure...but don't use enough to flex the steel. I work with my low grits like the dmt 325 and 500 shapton gs while shaping a rso into a razor. Multiple layers of tape help you get the geometry right & helps you to keep the rough grits off that spine, that's it. Once you have the bevels where you want and even on both sides, then hone it like a razor on 1K and one layer of tape.

Ok, Got the bevel where I think it can be . Not where i would ultimately like it to be but quite acceptable . took it to 1000, 4000, 8000, chromium oxide on the fabric strop , then onto the leather . Just shaved my neck "as i have a full beard now. and it shaved decently. I can see why people end up buying a 12000 grit or higher stone to really really polish the edge. I have learned so much and am still learning. But to actually shave with something i made . with so so equipment . Not bad . Not bad at all. Now here is to hoping i can get an awesome grinder some day to really polish up my work. thanks to all.