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I just purchased this razor and am amazed by the edge the seller was able to put on it. I have been honing for awhile and use a coticule and a thuringian as a finisher. I get comfortable shaves with my honing but the edges I produce are no where near this level. My question is how do I improve? Am I using the wrong hones? I can't figure out what the path to an exceptional edge is. Please enlighten me.
Attachment 196451
Is that a Henckels?
Yes, it is a Henckels stainless 8/8. It arrived today. I was blown away. The razor is terrific but the person who honed it was an expert.
Friodur 7/8 or 8/8. Those take awesome edge and shave superbly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
I wish I had the answer. I have a few razors that I use as benchmarks. Over time I have found myself able to hit my benchmarks, however, not every time and with no great consistency. All I know for sure is the base of every great edge is a perfect bevel. On restored edges I have started killing my edge and starting over if the whole edge is not there. The thought being that the entire edge should hit refinement at exactly the same time. This combined with my constant checking with the loupe has gotten me to a more consistent place. If I work the bevel too much then when I get to the finish it is already getting fragile. It is all theory and I have not produced enough edge nor have I produced enough consistent edge to really feel that I have a great handle on everything, but this is where I am at in my thinking about finding that perfect edge.
I have purchased quite a few razors from Classic Edge in Canada. Phil also imparts an excellent edge. I don't understand what guys that can get those excellent edges know that I don't.
Phil from Classic Edge puts a sublime edge on razors, have several of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaven
What model is that razor, gorgeous....
Those are reground blanks with added spine work, no model. The blanks should be #17 though.
They also are notorious for having very funky tangs and issues fitting straight in scales.
Phil can put an edge that good on a razor because that is what people pay him to do! He also has tons of experience doing it. I love the edges he puts on razors. Hell if I was paid to and spending 8+ hours a day honing and in the razor zone I would be very good at honing and my edges would be a lot better. Not at all to say that you have to be a pro to put an excellent edge on a razor because that's clearly not the case. There are a lot of excellent honers around the world that deserve credit. I would rather shave with a blade I honed out of the satisfaction and learning experience it brings. It is just hard to compare yourself starting out honing to someone who is very seasoned at it and that is their profession. (Helmet is on)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
Funny thing but I swear I put a better edge on for someone else than I do for myself. Everything I sell or send back honed I want to keep awhile :<0) I started to change that this year. For me it's a matter of paying attention to basics and details. Now if it isn't going perfect I chalk it up to attitude and come back to it a little later. I have more variety of stones than you listed and sometimes 1 route feels better than another but most of that is at bevel set or just above it. I always finish out the same way. 8k Norton 12k Nani and Zulu to smooth that out.
Practice practice practice. Some of these guys have honed a million razors so it comes natural.
I agree - I've got about 6 straight razor's I've honed myself under my belt - and it is a love / hate experience for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I shave with one of mine, which are turning out very nice, then I shave with one from Valery at the Gentleman's Den, and I've entered into an entirely different Universe...as RezDog mentions, for me, it is absolutely essential for my honing journey to have something to compare my efforts to, and you are correct, it comes down to practice, practice, practice...
I'm not one of the experts here. But I believe first that different razors are capable of different edges. So your razor in and of itself may simply be a superior razor that just takes a great edge. I recently dialed in my newest Eiko. I've had it for a while but it's finally where I want it to be. And that leads to another point. Don't give up on an edge. Sometimes you have to step back, reevaluate, and make adjustments. The other day I had one of those shaves that leaves you fully satisfied. I had a four day beard and my tuned in Eilko swiped it away as if it never existed. A perfectly smooth shave, no irritation at all. Part of that is that I believe the Eiko is capable of establishing a superior edge and the other part was my not giving up on it to get it dialed in to where it was. Then ,of course, is your stone progression. Since I've gotten the Suehiro 20k, I've had nothing but good results. There's you, your razor, and your hones. Everything has it's influence.
I have a few razors coming soon that he honed. Glad we have a place like his in Canada. And he does great honing! As he says.... A Zen like shave...... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by dcaven
[ I don't understand what guys that can get those excellent edges know that I don't.[/QUOTE]
Well, like the first man to teach me about honing said to me " If you want to become better at honing, hone allot more razors "
He also told me that purchasing more stones will not make me a better honer but that really learning the ones I have and honing allot of razors on them will.
Therefor I try to hone every day.
Have you asked the seller? PM him and ask what his progression was and what hones he used. It's obvious that his technique is a match for your face. Honers are always eager to share info. Good luck with your search.
"I agree - I've got about 6 straight razor's I've honed myself under my belt - and it is a love / hate experience for me."
I can understand the 'hate' part, but the 'love' part eludes me. If I had six well-honed razors under my belt, I think I might feel a tad uncomfortable.
You never know, it might create a nice draft through the ole britches. Of course it might make things a bit roomier down there too, depending on the man of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by ace
The last superb edge I received came from Phil at Classic Edge so I wrote him and asked what I was missing. His reply was balsa. The point however, is ask the person who honed the edge. He maybe a wizard or he may tell you some stone that He really likes and knows well
Phil, and his stones attended last years GTG in the GTA. He supplied everyone in attendance with either a balsa, or leather clad table strop to take with them. Some were coated in crox, other with .25 diamond spray.
He went through a demo with a few razors on the croX strop as the last step before final stropping with virtually no pressure beyond gravity and the results were impressive, by his hand.
As everyone in this hobby knows, it is all in the touch, stroke, steel, stone, lubricity, planetary alignment of Mars,, etc..
But,, a well used balsa, or suede finisher certainly can add an element of keenness, or smoothness to an edge, just as it can remove it with a few ill strokes.
Personally, I can hone German hollows with great success, but solid wedges, still struggling there...
Cheers.
LOL - no you read it correctly, the "love" part is only in the fact that I've actually honed a razor myself, that's about as far as the, "love" goes for me...haha...on the whole it is a long experience of frustration and patience, and as I've said in a few others posts, it cured me of any possibility of HAD for quite awhile....;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ace
And don't forget Valery at The Gentleman's Den - he is at a Zen like place all his own, his edges are my go-to, and have never had anything but the sharpest and smoothest edges I've ever shaved with, I think he's some type of Jedi Hone Master....:jedi:Quote:
Originally Posted by Willisf
Beautiful blade--and yeah, the Friodurs give a wonderful shave. I had a similar experience. I've maintained my own blades forever, but recently sent a Friodur out to Max for rescaling. He was nice enough to touch up the edge. I suspect he waved a magic wand over it. I've never gotten it that sharp or that smooth. Experience goes a long way!
Out of frustration I ordered a SUEHIRO GMN200 Whetstone GOKUMYO Series #20000. I will still use the Thuringian but will add some strokes on the 20k Suerhiro for a final touch. Does any one have experience with this stone? Is this the right tack to take? Interested in your thoughts and am determined to get an exceptional edge.
Well the 20k won't do you any harm. Assuming you have a progression up to 10/12k, you should be able to get a truly remarkable edge. The rest is up to you at this point. You have a great razor and good rocks to rub it on. Now it's your turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaven
I think that the best edge is going to come from what you do before you get to the finish hones. If you polish a substandard edge it will always be a substandard edge. I am looking forward to the Calgary meet because I know there will be a good core of experienced honers there and I am sure I will leave with some advancement in my honing. A little more practice and another meet and I should be close to hitting my benchmarks on a regular basis. I don't think my issue is hones but refinement of skill. YMMV
I'm going to assume a good edge prior to the 20k. It's said here so often that my head hurts from it that you need to get a good 8k edge. So ill assume that much is already in place. And that's a lot to assume really but you don't need me to give an inventory of the obvious. But assuming that much is in place, a push at 10 or 12k and then on to the 20k should provide an exceptional edge. The nice thing about the 20k is that it's straight forward. There isn't a lot to figure out with it. It's not like a Jnat the requires a PHD in patience to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
In my experience, it's not about the finishers, it's about what your edge is like before you get to the finisher. Each stone, including your bevel setter, needs to have the most pulled out of it. And that "most pulled out of it" is most important when setting the bevel. Those "super light" strokes done as the last few on your last hone are how you need to finish on every other hone as well.
And yes, honing lots and lots of razors helps as well, but only if you pay attention and try your best and try new things in the process. After all, hurling a basketball at the net a million times won't make you a good freethrow shooter.
Best advice I can give; don't even use a finisher until you are impressed by the way a razor shaves right off an 8k.
I use the 1K-3/8K-12K naniwa amd finish with the 20K suehiro and then strop well. I do get really good edge and the shave is very comfortable but I've only been at this for since 2013 and don't have the expertise that the masters do. I hope that will come with time. It's really humbling to think your doing great and then use one of the masters edges. Will the 20K help as others have said if the rest of the honing is up to par then the 20K should add the final touch to the edge. I hope you do better than me but from the sound of what you said about the edge you got on that razor don't be angry if it's a little short. If it's not hang in there you'll get there it just takes time and a few razors.
As I usually preface my comments on honing, I'm not one of the experts. But having depended on the experts in the past, I can say that I'm getting edges as good as the ones I used to marvel at. Am I as good as those guys? No. I can't solve every honing problem or perform as consistent as they do. But in most cases I can get where they used to go with my razors. And for me that's enough. It might take me a longer to get there than they do....in some cases much longer. But I'm happy with my setup and results these days. So my disorders can remain in the areas of razor acquisition and soaps/creams. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhensley
To try & simplify a complex thing.
You need :
1/ an exceptional razor
2/ a properly set bevel
3/ good or exceptional stones & knowledge in their use.
4/ enough experience to choose & apply points 1 - 3.
It's possible you can get more out of your Escher or the 20 k. If you can't the problem is earlier in your progression or maybe even knowing when to stop honing.
It's good to have goals. Just don't get frustrated as not all razors are created equally.
I am able to get a comfortable shaving edge out of the cuticle and the thuri. It is certain I can learn to use both of these better and get a still better edge. There is a big difference, however, between the edges I get and can envision getting out of those stones and the edge of the Henckel or the edges Phil puts on razors. I'm trying to up my game without having to hone 1000 razors. Hopefully the 20k stone will help. I also have a 1k and 3k stone and do occasionally reset the bevel on my razors. I don't do it often but do do it.
Setting the bevel is not always necessarry but being able to is. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaven
Someone mentioned earlier about getting great shaves at 8k. The essence ,I think, is being able to max out each stone so the higher you go is always an improvement up to a certain point. Then the knowing when to stop part comes in.
Same thing I say everytime I send a razor to Glen. I can get pretty good shaves but not like the edge Glen gets. It blows my mind how something so simple is so hard at times.
Same here RezDog! One day my edges are just ok, the next they are a personal best... I too, have a hard time getting the perfect edge consistently. While I'm getting better I'm still a long way off from consistent perfect edges. Just practice, practice, practice is the only advice I can give.
I've never honed a razor for anyone that I wasn't selling (as in one out of my rotation), as opposed to picking up a razor and restoring it.
I'd imagine the difference between good and blindingly good is oxides or submicron diamonds. Am I missing something? At least if that edge is to be had on every razor in every type of steel.
I used to run my razors through oxides before sending them, but for me personally, they are so sharp that they just shave every single bump off of my face, even with light pressure. So I send them natural stone only now, and figure that if someone else likes that sort of thing, the edge I'm leaving them with can be very easily stepped up with an oxide to that weeper maker level (which is pretty luxurious in places where there aren't bumps to turn to weepers - sides of cheeks and such).
I noticed that when I did send razors out with oxide honed edges, new shavers would always send back a message talking about how sharp they were but that "I think I did something wrong, because I've only shaved four or five times and it's not as sharp now". Yeah, well, that's how it goes! Ever since I've gone to honing with a natural stone, and then linen and then leather, I've only gotten one positive comment...
. i guess that means I like dull razors. :)
Edge chasing is a journey through transient states and oddly calibrated expectations.
