Printable View
I've only been honing for about 6 month and am able to get a good edge pretty consistently (still learning wedges).
After my 8k norton, my edges can pop arm hairs a 1/4" above my arm. However after taking that same edge to my 12k Shapton stone, it will no longer consistently pop hairs above my arm.
I that the 12k edges shave is a little less harsh but not much differance. I get great shaves even when I don't use the 12k.
Am I doing something wrong?
I am not going to be of much help because I have the same problem with my Sigma 13K. In the end I decided to move on with a different hone and it is just fine that way. I have a friend that uses the same hone, we have honed together, his edges are nice and mine are not. I have no way of explaining it. I do think that a shapton users will be able to explain it. They are pretty common,
Had a similar problem, with my 20K SG when. I had lapped it but it was leaving a rough edge and stria pattern.
I re-gridded the stone and took one lap with a worn 600 plate and saw a slight 1X1.5 in depression in the middle and center of the hone.
I re-lapped it, several times, removing a bit of the face, and it is a hard stone… and that solved the problem.
Take another look at your stone. Grid it and take one lap on a high grit plate or wet & dry. If you have a depression as the stone wears the un-lapped portion comes to the surface.
Or it could just be a pressure issue…
can you tell me about the smoothness difference of your shave coming off of 8k vs. 12k.
I have the same situation and I'm trying to see the final outcome which is the face and not the arm hair.
You can get a smooth shave from an 8K, I did for years. But the 12K is much smoother, much like an 8K with lots of Chrome Oxide laps on it.
I use a 12K Super Stone so I can’t comment on the Shapton.
It is a noticeable difference.
I grid and lapped it before honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I get great shaves off of each the 8k and when I contune to the 12k.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfro
The 8k edge is more harsh and maybe a little closer.
12k is smother and just fine. It just doesn't pop arm hairs.
My arm hairs are long and soft compared to my facial hair, so all n all I'm not sure it's really all that important. I just thought a 12k edge would be even sharper and more refined than the 8k.
I dont think I should stop popping arm hair 1/4" above the arm. Shaves arm hair at the base wickedly.
With some hones it happens that way
As the edge gets more refined and "Smoother" sometimes the tests don't work the same
I have a similar problem with the Naniwa SS series it took some getting used to
My 1k tests work the same as every other hone but as I go from 3-5-8-10 the tests no longer work like what I am used to, once I hit the 12 and do a shave test all if fine so I just roll through now when I use them..
I haven't used a Shapton 12k except at a couple of the meets so I can't say for sure this is the same issue, but if the shave test is good after you are done, it might well be...
If you don't have anybody local, perhaps you could mail some of your edges to a mentor willing to help you through. They can evaluate them, then redo them themselves and send them back. I.e. compare notes on the same edges.
May be a 12k and 8k edge are just as good to you, while they are as day and night to somebody else. Or may be there's something you're missing honing-wise. It's probably worth knowing what is the case and discussing the exact same edge is the way to address the inherent subjectivity.
"I grid and lapped it before honing."
That was my point, take another look at the stone.
Grid it and do one lap with the diamond plate or sand paper. See if, all the grid comes off.
If the grid does not come off in 1 lap, the stone is not flat, and if that is a depression that has never been flattened, it will leave a rough edge.
When doing multiple laps it is not uncommon for the slurry to remove the pencil grid and parts of the stone, will have never touched the lapping plate.
Eliminate the stone as an issue, then look elsewhere.
As Jimmy would say; "excuse me, while I kiss the sky"Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Thank you...that makes so much "forehead slapping" sense...
I'm not getting the forehead slap, so I know I'm missing something important.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC
When I have put a pencil grid on the stone, I then use my DMT to lap the stone flat, with the idea being that once the pencil grid is gone, the stone is then flat i.,e properly "lapped", is this what you're saying Euclid440?
The forehead slap for me was the realization that if the grid does not disappear almost instantly (a couple of figure 8's?) that the grid removal may be more from the slurry - that could be filling a void/pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
If I'm correct (and please chime in, don't be shy) if the grid does not disappear quickly I should re-lap until it does.
I'm going to go pour "something brown" in to a tumbler and think about this...
When I was working myself through the basics of honing I had similar problems. The higher the grit the worse the edge seemed to be. Turns out, I was not maxing out each stone. I had to look really close under good magnification to see where I was falling short. I really wish I could convey to you what I see and what I look for before moving on to the next grit. The basic ideas can be shared but the fine details are learned on the fly. The only thing I can say is that it should look clean and even at the cutting edge before you move on. And when you do, it should again look clean and even before you move to the next. It's not really possible to convey the fine details.
I don't have a Norton but anything my 8k Pro does the 12k does better. I suggest there is something amiss here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hthomas
After checking the flatness as advised, check that the edge is actually being polished by the 12 k.
A light touch will see the edge brightening before the shoulder of the bevel. You will need a loupe to see this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC
Yes, exactly.
When I lap a new stone I grid it several times 4-5 spinning the stone 180 degrees, with each grid layout and lap from corner to corner and end to end.
If you lap a stone where you are raising a lot of slurry, that slurry alone will remove the pencil grid, especially if the grid is applied lightly.
I noticed this when lapping natural stones with loose grit. So I started marking hard natural stones with a sharpie, with is not as easy to wash off.
Once the stone is flat, you can quickly remove a new pencil grid, so it is not like you are endlessly lapping the stone. I also lap with progressively higher diamond plates, just draw a quick grid to make sure the stone is flat.
If the stone is flat, one lap up and down will remove the grid, completely. If you see low spots, that part of the stone has never touched the plate and will be much rougher than the lapped part.
Re lapped the hones. Now one lap around the wet / dry and all the pencil marks are gone.
I honed two Robeson razors and one is amazing. Treetops and one doesn't. I got a close smooth shave the one razor tonight.
I sure it's just a new stone I need to get used to.
I'm going to meet up with Ken Rupkalvis, my SATx mentore, latter this week. What a great guy. An ex high school teacher and makes some great strops.
Thank you guys for the wonderful help and fabulous shave tonight.
You guys are the best
If it shaves well I don't care if it tree tops my arm hair , maybe worrying about the stuff that you can't change , I get the same results too and my blades are honed by a pretty good fellow. I don't know why but the ones that don't tree top my arm hair really give me a smooth shave. Tc
I am SUPER new to honing, but I have found the same thing when moving from my 8k Norton to 12k Naniwa completing the polishing phases of honing. Thinking I was doing something wrong, I changed what hair I do my tests on from my arm hair (very fine) to my beard (more course). To me it seems that the arm hair just doesn't stick to any well polished edge, whether I honed it or not. On the beard, however, the 12k grabs and tops just fine. I now just accept that if it looks good under the loupe, and it it topping my beard, it is ready for a shave test. Thus far, on the 5 different blades I have successfully taken to this point, that I get extremely smooth and close shaves.
The steel made a difference in my experience as well....my 3 TI C135 blades when well polished always seem "less sharp" than the 2 Sheffield's I have completed...no matter what I can't get a TI to top trees on arm hair, but man they give a great shave on the shave test....so with that I left them alone and use them almost daily! The Sheffields will top hair after the 12k..but just barely. Just my observations. I have a LONG way to go before I can really speak with any reasonable authority.
Im right there with you. About 6 months I've been refreshing my blades. About 3-4 months I've been buying ebay razors and feel competent at bevel setting only after Kens Rupkalvis' help (very patient man).Quote:
Originally Posted by Denvernoob
The shapton is a new stone and the pros here were correct, just because the grid marks get removed doesn't mean the stone is flat. They have to come off with a single swipe.
Yes the steel makes some differences. The hht is just a guide.
The shave test and edge longevity is the ticket. We both are still learning
NAwesome! I didn't realize that and was just lapping until all the marks were gone. Didn't realize about the slurry. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440