Getting a harsh edge from Suehiro 20k

Progression for touch up was as follows: coticule, thuringian, Suehiro 20k. I have been getting comfortable shaves from just the coticule and the thuringian but would like an even sharper edge. However, I want to maintain the soft edge I already have. Do Suehiro's just impart a harsher edge, am I doing too many strokes? Any help will be appreciated. I think there are some bevel issues. I am going to dull the razor and start with a 1k with tape, 3k no tape but using a sharpie to see when my bevel is correct, then on to the rest.

David

Going all the way back to 1k seems kind of drastic :<0) Harsh sometimes means very sharp. I got that when I started using a 12k Nani. Zulu made it smooth out and It stayed sharp. If somebody ever invents a way to watch as you hone at the molecular level it would sure answer a lot of questions .

Depending on why it is harsh. I think sometimes when you go to far with an edge it gets harsh. I call it a prickly shave. Some hones do and others not. I am not a user of the 20K, but have experience harsh edges from others.

+1 to both of the above posts. Try taking it back to your thuri for a few strokes. Might 'take the harsh off the edge. I've also had that experience with high grit synthetics when I was used to a natural edge. A few licks on the escher and it was more what I was used to.

Maybe I'll try that. Sitting here looking at the progression of stones I have laid out makes me sleepy. The principal reason I am considering going all the way back to the 1k is that after using a sharpie, the Suehiro didn't remove all the ink. After a while it removed most of it but not all. When I hone, I start with a 1k with a taped spine and then take the tape off for the 3k. Then I move to the naturals. In this case, I don't think I spent enough time on the 3k evening out the bevel.

Maybe so. It should have removed the ink at the bevel, not necessarily the ink that was over top of the bevel. If it wasn't catching the ink at the bevel something else must be going on.

BTW, my experience with harsh edges on high grit synthetics does not include the Suehiro 20k. That has been giving me very smooth results on a variety of razors. I've also sold a few honed with the 20k and gotten feedback from buyers saying they were pleased with the edges.

Everybody is different though, and if you're used to coticule and thuringan edges a synthetic, even a Suehiro, might be different enough to feel harsh.

I have no idea why you are taking the tape off, change it I understand, add a layer I understand, but by taking the tape off your first 20 strokes on the 3K are just getting you back to the edge and have you honing only the shoulder of the bevel. The first time I saw that I thought you had simply miss typed it.

I don't get the 1k tape/3k no tape thing either. If you're not using tape 3k up, I'd start by getting rid of the tape - in general. In this specific instance, I'd start with JimmyHAD's suggestion and go back to the Thuri and test shave. If it's still harsh, I'd probably go to the 1k without tape and then back up.

Also try the Sharpie again but with just one or two strokes per side on the 1k or 3k, weight of the blade and see if it wears off at the apex of the bevel or up on the shoulder of the bevel. If it wears on the shoulder, you' may be using too much pressure.

How many strokes are using on the Suehiro?

Cheers, Steve

I need the tape on the 1k to prevent hone wear. I do not want to have to tape them every time I refresh them so I transition from a taped razor to an untapped razor at 3k. Also, some of my razors were honed not using tape by vendors and it would be impossible to know which ones to tape and which ones not to tape, therefore I lose the tape. I was instructed to do this by someone who puts excellent edges on razors.

I've always found the Suehiro to give a great edge not harsh at all. Usually if a razor is proper sharp but harsh the issue lies further back in the honing process. Sometimes a few trips on some CrO will remove the harsh but that's assuming there isn't a real issue with the edge. If that's the case you have to start looking with some mag and then decide how far back you need to go.

All my razors are honed on the Shapton Glass Stone Progression. I use one piece of tape on the spine beginning at the 1K glass stone. I add two more on the final 30K stone. I copied the two tape spine addition from Tim Zowada. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

The problem is taking off the tape and never reaching the very edge. Try using the sharpie at the 3k and see if I'm not right :<0)

Your setting the bevel at 1 angle and then lowering it off the edge through the progression. If you spend enough time at the 3k your alright but here comes that hone wear your trying to avoid.

I'm not sure I buy the "I need tape to avoid honewear" argument. Ideally, the spine and edge should wear together to maintain bevel geometry, on typical razors that don't need the goldwash or damascus pattern on the spine preserved, or whose makers set the bevel angle with tape.

I understand the microbevel thing, and that's fine, but just to use tape at 1k to "prevent hone wear" is probably questionable. If you put tape on the spine at 1k then hone back to the apex on 3k, there's absolutely no difference than if you didn't use tape at all. Think about it.

Cheers, Steve

The Suehiro will bring your edge to scary sharp. What others are trying to accomplish with pastes or sprays the Suehiro is doing outright. I don't know what your edges were like prior but the Suehiro will demand a light touch when shaving. It's a different edge than that of a natural. I hope it works put for you. It's been the best thing I've added to my honing set up.

I hope I can figure out the Suehiro. I bought it because I wanted to get a little bit more out of my edges. As far as hone wear, what Steve 56 makes sense in theory. I have, however, ruined a Filly on a 1k. For some reason the 3k doesn't cause the damage to the spine the 1k does. Perhaps you are right and I am not really evening out the bevel with the 3k. Perhaps I should tape the whole way through. I will think about it and will do some tests with a sharpie. With the Filly, the 1k just ate up the spine. I sold the razor for a fraction of what I paid for it. I recognize the need for the 1k but don't trust it at all.

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Originally Posted by dcaven

I hope I can figure out the Suehiro. I bought it because I wanted to get a little bit more out of my edges. As far as hone wear, what Steve 56 makes sense in theory. I have, however, ruined a Filly on a 1k. For some reason the 3k doesn't cause the damage to the spine the 1k does. Perhaps you are right and I am not really evening out the bevel with the 3k. Perhaps I should tape the whole way through. I will think about it and will do some tests with a sharpie. With the Filly, the 1k just ate up the spine. I sold the razor for a fraction of what I paid for it. I recognize the need for the 1k but don't trust it at all.

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If you have an issue with electrical tape which has an average thickness of .007 inch, my Brown & Sharpe micrometer measures a piece of Scotch tape as being .004 inch. My Starrett micrometer measures the Scotch tape at .004 inch also. This may or may not alleviate some of the issue. Just a thought on your behalf. Good luck with your hone wear issue.

One other idea might be to hone all the way through your progression using only one piece of Scotch tape on each of the stones. You only need a 1k 3 or 4k and an 8k to get a great shave. What if that works and you never even tried it? Again, good luck with your issue.....:chapeau

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Originally Posted by dcaven

I hope I can figure out the Suehiro. I bought it because I wanted to get a little bit more out of my edges. As far as hone wear, what Steve 56 makes sense in theory. I have, however, ruined a Filly on a 1k. For some reason the 3k doesn't cause the damage to the spine the 1k does. Perhaps you are right and I am not really evening out the bevel with the 3k. Perhaps I should tape the whole way through. I will think about it and will do some tests with a sharpie. With the Filly, the 1k just ate up the spine. I sold the razor for a fraction of what I paid for it. I recognize the need for the 1k but don't trust it at all.

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I've always found the tape/no tape argument as an amusing and entertaining side note that scratches my instigator itch. But in reality, I doubt it has anything to do with a harsh edge on way or another. So debate that all day for various conceptual perspectives but the harshness is a separate issue. Maybe try fewer strokes on it and see how that works for you. It makes about as much sense to give you a honing recipe as it does to continue the tape argument. But generally, I do 5-10 laps on a 12k before doing 10-20 laps on the 20k. It all just depends on how the razor is behaving and how I prefer it.

Just a thought and dcaven maybe this was already discussed and I missed it but some (even many) razors will never take a 20K edge. Some razors edges can start breaking down past the 8K mark. The GMN 200 is does not impart a harsh edge for a synthetic stone IMO.
Mike

If you put tape on the spine at 1k then hone back to the apex on 3k, there's absolutely no difference than if you didn't use tape at all. Think about it.

No, not really, because the bevels are already flat, so you just have to get them to meet by removing just a bit of steel, a lot less wear on the spine.

Problem is, as said, probably did not hone all the way to the edge on the 3K.

If the 20k is not hitting the edge, you are shaving on a 1K edge, or at least a partial 1K edge, or there is a problem with the 20K face. Ink is your friend...

I am going to redo them but this time I will use a sharpie before the 3k stone. I will hone at 3k until the ink is gone. I am convinced this will lead to considerably less hone wear than not taping at 1k. Thanks for your replies.

David

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I'm not sure I buy the "I need tape to avoid honewear" argument. Ideally, the spine and edge should wear together to maintain bevel geometry, on typical razors that don't need the goldwash or damascus pattern on the spine preserved, or whose makers set the bevel angle with tape.

I understand the microbevel thing, and that's fine, but just to use tape at 1k to "prevent hone wear" is probably questionable. If you put tape on the spine at 1k then hone back to the apex on 3k, there's absolutely no difference than if you didn't use tape at all. Think about it.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by dcaven

I hope I can figure out the Suehiro. I bought it because I wanted to get a little bit more out of my edges. As far as hone wear, what Steve 56 makes sense in theory. I have, however, ruined a Filly on a 1k. For some reason the 3k doesn't cause the damage to the spine the 1k does. Perhaps you are right and I am not really evening out the bevel with the 3k. Perhaps I should tape the whole way through. I will think about it and will do some tests with a sharpie. With the Filly, the 1k just ate up the spine. I sold the razor for a fraction of what I paid for it. I recognize the need for the 1k but don't trust it at all.

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I used to hold to the idea that the spine and bevel needed to wear together. I honed with tape for a year, then without it for about a year. I finally came to the conclusion that tape is a better choice ....... for me ...... YMMV.



What ever anomaly there is in the spine will show in the bevel if the spine is taped. IOW, it will work out in the bevel, but it won't create a problem in terms of achieving a shave ready edge. Below see two Robert Williams SRP limited editions. The prototype, in the foreground, was honed with no tape, and the other with tape. Both are great shavers.

Attachment 198443

That may be true but, first of all, I don't want the spine work or original spine damaged if possible. Second, I just don't like tape. I don't want to tape each razor every time I want to do a quick touch up. A quick touch up soon becomes more than that with me spending time taping, untaping and applying some sort of solvent to get rid of the glue the tape has left behind. The only reason I use the 1k and 3k at all is they save a tremendous amount of time setting the bevel versus setting the bevel on a coticule. I want to use the 1k to set the bevel and the 3k without tape to correct the geometry. The best idea I have heard so far is to use a Sharpie on the bevel before honing on the 3k.

I would say if you start with tape, finish with tape. I don't know what tape you are using, but it takes me all of 5 seconds to apply and remove tape. Also, I've never had any tape residue left on my blades, especially anything that needed solvents to remove. I have the gokumyo 20k, and it's great and easy to use. I've been using it less recently because of some jnats, but I still like to use it for touchups. I have several razors I'm restoring that have horrible geometry issues caused from excessive honing and bad technique. Not all razors are equal, so you need to establish a solid starting point. I always start by assessing the hone wear and inspecting the way the blade rests on the hone. This tells me if I need to use a rolling x stroke or not. Then I inspect the hone wear. Then it's just a matter of making sure the bevel meets along the entire length of the edge. Try to look past the tape/no tape nonsense and I'm sure the edge will come together. The 20k is a fantastic finisher, I don't believe the issue is in the stone. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by dcaven

I need the tape on the 1k to prevent hone wear. I do not want to have to tape them every time I refresh them so I transition from a taped razor to an untapped razor at 3k. Also, some of my razors were honed not using tape by vendors and it would be impossible to know which ones to tape and which ones not to tape, therefore I lose the tape. I was instructed to do this by someone who puts excellent edges on razors.

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For me I use tape on every razor to prevent hone wear and scratches. And when I use tape to start with I keep it all through the honing process to keep the same bevel. When you start with tape thickness of 7 to 8.5 thousandth then when you remove it the bevel changes. Anyway that's my way of thinking.

Hint;

Stop thinking and speculating and go try it

1 Layer of Electrical tape at the 1k level to set the hard bevel then dropping the tape at the 3-4-5 k level takes mere seconds to even out the bevels less then 20 laps
It eliminates the deeper 1k scratches that you would leave on the spine..


I have a Vid of exactly how little one layer of tape changes, things but honestly just go try it yourself the AHT and dulling the edge is a good way of testing it...
Set the bevel at 1k with 1 layer of tape so that it passes your AHT, then lightly kill the edge so that it doesn't pass, then remove tape and re-set the bevel using your 3-4-5 k hone and see just how little it takes...

(Does not apply to using multiple layers for geometry issues and Torque while honing plays a large effect on spine wear in general)

Probably just me but your touch up progression sounds kind of funny.....as in any one of the three would do the job for you but you believe all three in progression will give you the magic edge....many experienced members have weighed in on this.....so I don't need to add any solutions just that I have never heard of the 3 hone progression you mention before this post for touching up a blade. Let us know if all or any of this stuff works.