bevel setting & honing a wedge?

I've seen my share of videos from the library, YouTube and other source's. Lynn's, gssixgun, toxIk and Lenard's are some of the best. But what I haven't run across, or may have missed in the countless hours of videos. Is the proper way to hone a wedge or 1/4 wedge blade. (No smiles here) Just st8 edges.

One would assume it should be straight forward like a hollow or extra hollow, but any "wedge honing" videos I've seen, refer to "smiling wedges".

Any help, advice or links to where I should bury my head? I've run around the video circuit enough, I think I've seen some videos 4x's before I realized I've seen it already.:cry:

Don't know if it is the proper way. I put three layers of tape on the spine and set the bevel and hone the razor. Like I said, don't know if I am correct but it works for me.

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Originally Posted by bouschie

Don't know if it is the proper way. I put three layers of tape on the spine and set the bevel and hone the razor. Like I said, don't know if I am correct but it works for me.

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I can only assume it has to do with spine width and blade size, I.e. 6/8, 7/8 ,13/16, and the calculations to determine the proper ang.......zzzzzz:banghead:

But I want this to be fun or at least pleasant. I'm not a "math Asian". :) I'm sure in the 1800's it was just " slap the steel to stone" ,but I already have enough scars.

A wedge or hollow ground hones up more or less the same way. If you have a smiling blade of either type they hone with the same strokes or if they have straight edges they hone as per straight edges. That is disregarding any warps or twists. Where you can wind up having trouble with older wedges, I mean blades with very little concavity to them not 1/4 or 1/2 hollows, is it here is heavy hone wear and the geometry is all off. You may have to build up the spine width with layers of tape to get the geometry back in spec. After that they hone like anything else. Then again i ain't no expert.

Bob

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

I can only assume it has to do with spine width and blade size, I.e. 6/8, 7/8 ,13/16, and the calculations to determine the proper ang.......zzzzzz:banghead:

But I want this to be fun or at least pleasant. I'm not a "math Asian". :) I'm sure in the 1800's it was just " slap the steel to stone" ,but I already have enough scars.

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You don't have to be a math genius. Just use the excel file found here http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html and plug in your measurements to find how many layers of tape you may need for a wedge.

Bob

I haven't honed as many razors as some of these guys but for me if there is little to no hone wear I use 1 layer of tape but it the hone wear is a little more I use 2 layers of tape. the tape I use is 3M 88 witch is about 8.5 thousandths thick. I've heard of thicker tape but where I live the 88 is the best I can find. while i'm setting the bevel I watch the tape closely and if it wears I change it often. after the bevel is set then the tape doesn't wear that much for me. anyway that's the way I do it.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

I haven't honed as many razors as some of these guys but for me if there is little to no hone wear I use 1 layer of tape but it the hone wear is a little more I use 2 layers of tape. the tape I use is 3M 88 witch is about 8.5 thousandths thick. I've heard of thicker tape but where I live the 88 is the best I can find. while i'm setting the bevel I watch the tape closely and if it wears I change it often. after the bevel is set then the tape doesn't wear that much for me. anyway that's the way I do it.

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This is what I thought, but could find no proof. The 2wedges I have little to no wear. The Joseph Rodgers has noticeable spine wear on one side only, but this wear is minor at best. I planned to do the single layer method, but there is no telling what the previous years of honing have done to the angle.

So I'll throw 1layer on and see how even the bevel shows and go from there.

I kept hearing stories of how hard wedges were compared to hollows, but this must be in particular to "smiling wedges" or wrapped blades.

I went through this just recently. I have trouble getting my wedges as sharp as my hollows. I feel with the combination of generally wider bevels and little to no blade flex, that wedges require a softer touch earlier in the honing process as well as a little extra time on each hone.

Well.....depends...on which you're talking about, a true wedge, i.e. a razor shaped like an axe head or a razor that is slightly hollowed but as stiff as a wedge?

If the first, and the spine doesn't lift enough to eliminate contact higher on the blade, then, "and this is me" I use 3 layers of tape and determine if the edge is being contacted. If not, or minimally and creating a very wide bevel, I'll use (not generally recommended...due to softness of the tape) 4 layers and carefully hone.

If 4 layers isn't enough.....sounds, IMHO, like a candidate for a re-grind!!

Late Edit: You mentioned a 1/4 hollow. It should hone and bevel set like any other grind, providing the spine hasn't been ground away by too much excessive or aggressive honing without tape!! :D

:gl:

Regards,

Howard :)

2nd that. 3 layer start, see what's going on. maybe drop to 2 layers and stop. Thin bevel doesn't hurt anything.

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

Well.....depends...on which you're talking about, a true wedge, i.e. a razor shaped like an axe head or a razor that is slightly hollowed but as stiff as a wedge?

If the first, and the spine doesn't lift enough to eliminate contact higher on the blade, then, "and this is me" I use 3 layers of tape and determine if the edge is being contacted. If not, or minimally and creating a very wide bevel, I'll use (not generally recommended...due to softness of the tape) 4 layers and carefully hone.

If 4 layers isn't enough.....sounds, IMHO, like a candidate for a re-grind!!

Late Edit: You mentioned a 1/4 hollow. It should hone and bevel set like any other grind, providing the spine hasn't been ground away by too much excessive or aggressive honing without tape!! :D

:gl:

Regards,

Howard :)

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One is a true wedge, the othor is a qtr hollow (I believe). I'll try to take some photos and insert them later.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ps96z487ku.jpghttp://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...psel4bnxuy.jpghttp://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...pspfixawcn.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...pswdqkryi7.jpg

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

One is a true wedge, the othor is a qtr hollow (I believe). I'll try to take some photos and insert them later.

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Photos would be a very good idea as true wedges are extremely rare to non existent. If you can lay a straight edge across the blade on your "true edge" from spine to edge. Then check and see if you can see light under the straight edge. If you see light, even a small amount, chances are it is not a "true wedge". Check out the definition true wedge here The straight razor - Straight Razor Place Library .

Bob

It's not a "True" wedge they really are very rare just like Bob said

It has a hollow,, look at the grind line at the tang, how much it has been worn we have no idea

Regardless take the advice above, start with 3 layers do a couple of laps, look for the bevel, use a Marker to color the edge to see better if you must... You can always remove tape if it isn't needed, I find taking a layer of tape off much easier then adding steel back on :p


The razor will tell you exactly what you need to know,

You can measure
You can guess
or
You can put the razor on the hones and Know for a fact :)

Yea, now that the photos are up, that is a very nice condition near wedge. Looks like it is not a smiling wedge either so it should be easy to hone if it has no warps and/or twists. Have fun.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yea, now that the photos are up, that is a very nice condition near wedge. Looks like it is not a smiling wedge either so it should be easy to hone if it has no warps and/or twists. Have fun.

Bob

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So the "tell" is the slight grind you can see at the heel & the slight bump at the spine before going into the blade?
So 2-3 pieces?

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

So the "tell" is the slight grind you can see at the heel & the slight bump at the spine before going into the blade?
So 2-3 pieces?

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No, the tell for me is my Mod 1 Mark 1 eyeball thinking it is seeing a very slight concavity to the blade from the end on shot. To confirm it use a straight edge as I suggested.

As for layers of tape, I don't know what to suggest as I usually take 2 measurements and plug those into the excel file linked to and that gives me a start point for the few near wedges that I have had.

That said, I would follow Glen's advice in post #13.

Bob

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

So the "tell" is the slight grind you can see at the heel & the slight bump at the spine before going into the blade?
So 2-3 pieces?

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I'll bring a straight edge home this evening and do a shot. Plus my other so called wedges.

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

I'll bring a straight edge home this evening and do a shot. Plus my other so called wedges.

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The term "wedge" is used generally very loosely today to describe a blade with a very heavy grind. It might be more proper to call them "near wedges" instead as illustrated in the site's library. I must be getting old, have a couple of rulers in the desk drawer in front of me to use as straight edges.

Bob

I have a flat screen monitor and I laid a straight edge against one of the OPs pics - it has a hollow alright.

Regards,
Neil

Here is a J Rodgers wedge from well back into the 1800s. I laid a 6 inch hook rule across the width of the blade. There is about .025" of air space under the rule which makes the blade just about a full wedge.

Attachment 199943

Attachment 199944

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Originally Posted by BobH

Photos would be a very good idea as true wedges are extremely rare to non existent. If you can lay a straight edge across the blade on your "true edge" from spine to edge. Then check and see if you can see light under the straight edge. If you see light, even a small amount, chances are it is not a "true wedge". Check out the definition true wedge here The straight razor - Straight Razor Place Library .

Bob

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True wedges would be very rare. with the equipment they had in those days I wonder what the + or - would be when something was made. Yes if a True straight edge is placed across a true flat surface then there would be no light but then again in this world how many things are absolutely true. I have a Joseph Rodgers wedge shaped razor that is all but unused now I don't know whether to call it a wedge or hollow ground. You've got me thinking and that hurts.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

True wedges would be very rare. with the equipment they had in those days I wonder what the + or - would be when something was made. Yes if a True straight edge is placed across a true flat surface then there would be no light but then again in this world how many things are absolutely true. I have a Joseph Rodgers wedge shaped razor that is all but unused now I don't know whether to call it a wedge or hollow ground. You've got me thinking and that hurts.

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you also have to take into consideration the almost 2 hours I spent removing stains and scratches from the face of the blade. It sure isn't going to be flat anymore. Probably a .004-.008 gap by now. guess I'll bring my calipers home to.:banghead:

[QUOTE=mrsell63;1490905]Here is a J Rodgers wedge from well back into the 1800s. I laid a 6 inch hook rule across the width of the blade. There is about .025" of air space under the rule which makes the blade just about a full wedge.

Yes, that sliver of light makes it a "near wedge" not a "true wedge". Oth it is what people generally, but technically wrongly, refer to as a wedge.

Bob

[QUOTE=BobH;1490922]

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

Here is a J Rodgers wedge from well back into the 1800s. I laid a 6 inch hook rule across the width of the blade. There is about .025" of air space under the rule which makes the blade just about a full wedge.

Yes, that sliver of light makes it a "near wedge" not a "true wedge". Oth it is what people generally, but technically wrongly, refer to as a wedge.

Bob

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So truly most wverything, except for the hallowed few, should all be concidered "near wedge"?
Im sure in the 1800's, wedge razor had to be ground flat, and possibly with some inconsistencies. Maybe thats how the near wedge line was created.

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

Im sure in the 1800's, wedge razor had to be ground flat, and possibly with some inconsistencies. Maybe thats how the near wedge line was created.

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Think about the issues of honing a true wedge.. you would be honing the entire side of the razor or you would have to lift the spine...

To be honest I have most recently begun to think that any of the "True" wedges that we actually find out there that haven't been worn into it might be Factory Blems that missed the final grinder :shrug:

We were talking about his a few weeks back and I suggested that someone lay the edge of a business card across the bevel and see if what you had was actually a "big wheel grind." That is how I check so see where the subtle hollow and convex grinds on a kitchen knife have shaped up. That may have had flat platens in those factories back in the day, but I haven't see a picture of one that I can recall. I have 36 and 72 inch "diameter " platens that simulate those very shallow grinds that you would see on knives coming out of Sheffield and Solingen back in the day. [QUOTE=BobH;1490922]

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

Here is a J Rodgers wedge from well back into the 1800s. I laid a 6 inch hook rule across the width of the blade. There is about .025" of air space under the rule which makes the blade just about a full wedge.

Yes, that sliver of light makes it a "near wedge" not a "true wedge". Oth it is what people generally, but technically wrongly, refer to as a wedge.

Bob

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Think about the issues of honing a true wedge.. you would be honing the entire side of the razor or you would have to lift the spine...

To be honest I have most recently begun to think that any of the "True" wedges that we actually find out there that haven't been worn into it might be Factory Blems that missed the final grinder :shrug:

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I would wonder if a TRUE wedge would have actually acquired that shape from hand work after the primary very shallow hollow grinding on the big wheels? I know from watching a Bill Moran video, that you can get any shape you want on a big wheel. He essentially reproduced the very subtle convex grind of the Japanese swords starting off with a 12 inch emery wheel and cutting a series of little flats into the blade and then blending them. With that said, I t would be a VERY labor intensive operation even in a very early industrial setting, perhaps more time consuming that a DEEP full hollow, which we know you can do on small powered wheels.

[QUOTE=lethalgraphix;1490933]

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Originally Posted by BobH

So truly most wverything, except for the hallowed few, should all be concidered "near wedge"?
Im sure in the 1800's, wedge razor had to be ground flat, and possibly with some inconsistencies. Maybe thats how the near wedge line was created.

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Yes, most would be "near wedges". I think you would get a pretty big argument over that from Neil Miller on how razors were ground in Sheffield in the 1800s. Me, at this point I don't really care as people tend to call everything from quarter hollows up wedges.

Bob

My guess is that the advantage of a little bit of hollow would have been obvious from the start and that the amount of hollow was limited by the size of the wheel. Even a 10" diameter wheel will result in a pretty flat grind ~ .015" chord height on a 6/8 razor.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Think about the issues of honing a true wedge.. you would be honing the entire side of the razor or you would have to lift the spine...

To be honest I have most recently begun to think that any of the "True" wedges that we actually find out there that haven't been worn into it might be Factory Blems that missed the final grinder :shrug:

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Here is the best I can do with 2 hands, a camera, a straight edge, and a somewhat dull razor. And still focus. :)
It's pretty darn close.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...pswdqkryi7.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...psyq8ax9ca.jpghttp://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...psgwx4ts5x.jpg

I put a mic on some notebook paper and got .004896. So just under .005" stripped it into a 1/4" wide strip and I was able to get it between the blade and straight edge with some pushing and buckling.

each to his own but I would call that a full wedge with some wear. I know it might not be perfect but even machinist have a plus or minus to there work.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

each to his own but I would call that a full wedge with some wear. I know it might not be perfect but even machinist have a plus or minus to there work.

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I would agree. I can't even sneek up on the written dimensions on the specs. I am usually +/-.002 with my machines, but their tied ol' iron workhorses from the 50's. I usually try to be over .004 and sand/polish to the finished dimensions, but usually end up minus the final size. :(
Never said I was good.

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Originally Posted by lethalgraphix

Here is the best I can do with 2 hands, a camera, a straight edge, and a somewhat dull razor. And still focus. :)
It's pretty darn close.
I put a mic on some notebook paper and got .004896. So just under .005" stripped it into a 1/4" wide strip and I was able to get it between the blade and straight edge with some pushing and buckling.

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No idea why the first pic is there but as you say from the other two pretty darn close but still no "no true wedge".

I think agent 86 covered that contingency.

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBlhrTpi69E

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Originally Posted by BobH

No idea why the first pic is there but as you say from the other two pretty darn close but still no "no true wedge".

I think agent 86 covered that contingency.

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBlhrTpi69E

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Someone mentioned about finish and length. I told them I was gonna post other pics in the thread this evening. Also to show the minimal spine wear.

LOL I tried to hone a worn blade to make a true wedge once. Oh it was so close and I just had to try. The end result was, WTheck was I thinking :<0)

I have an 8" contact wheel and it covers most blade profiles you might call a wedge. If I had 250 bucks worth of cans I would buy a 10" wheel and I think that would just about cover everything made. There is a fellow that does double hollow grinds and I noticed a platen that had a rather large radius to it. I suppose that may be how a modern maker could get very near TRUE wedge.

If you go and look at the "how they were made" videos and pictures of the old shops you will see rather large wheels grinding away at the old razor blanks. The radius of today's razors are forged right into the blanks. That radius, no matter how large in diameter makes it possible to hone the darn thing. This is why you see pictures of 16 or 18" wheels with pedals attached to them. Guys made a living regrinding those old blades so they could be honed again.

Wedge is a term. A true wedge makes no sense at all. If you doubt me, go grind a piece of bar stock to a wedge and try to hone it. I dare you !

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

LOL I tried to hone a worn blade to make a true wedge once. Oh it was so close and I just had to try. The end result was, WTheck was I thinking :<0)

I have an 8" contact wheel and it covers most blade profiles you might call a wedge. If I had 250 bucks worth of cans I would buy a 10" wheel and I think that would just about cover everything made. There is a fellow that does double hollow grinds and I noticed a platen that had a rather large radius to it. I suppose that may be how a modern maker could get very near TRUE wedge.

If you go and look at the "how they were made" videos and pictures of the old shops you will see rather large wheels grinding away at the old razor blanks. The radius of today's razors are forged right into the blanks. That radius, no matter how large in diameter makes it possible to hone the darn thing. This is why you see pictures of 16 or 18" wheels with pedals attached to them. Guys made a living regrinding those old blades so they could be honed again.

Wedge is a term. A true wedge makes no sense at all. If you doubt me, go grind a piece of bar stock to a wedge and try to hone it. I dare you !

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Nathan Carothers made a series of those convex platens to simulate wheel diameters of 24, 36, 48 and 72 inches, IIRC. I have the 36 and 72. You really have trouble seeing the hollow on the 72 and I have used it to do the curved clips on big bowies. The 36 is a bit more noticeable on blades the size of a wider razor, but still pretty darn subtle. The other thing that I have used them for is to do the very shallow hollowing midway up the blade bevels on what some call an "S" grind on a kitchen knife blade.

I have that exact JR razor. It is a near wedge... Jr are ground pretty well for Sheffield razors when they haven't been screwed too badly by a century plus of different ppl honing them. I would proceed as you normally would and it will just take more time than you are used to. Maybe magic marker it at first and hit a lighter grit just to dip your toe in and see how each side is meeting the hone and adjust accordingly. If anything, I find them easy to hone, just time consuming.

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Originally Posted by kcb5150

I have that exact JR razor. It is a near wedge... Jr are ground pretty well for Sheffield razors when they haven't been screwed too badly by a century plus of different ppl honing them. I would proceed as you normally would and it will just take more time than you are used to. Maybe magic marker it at first and hit a lighter grit just to dip your toe in and see how each side is meeting the hone and adjust accordingly. If anything, I find them easy to hone, just time consuming.

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I'll giver it ago. I'm waiting for my C12k whetstone to arrive, then I'll start the madness.