Kamisori Honing

I know there are a ton of threads on this subject, but I still have some questions.
So I just recently purchased this Kamisori
RARE Tamahagane Shizu Saburo J apanese Straight Razor Shaving Sword Katana A 60 | eBay

And here are the stones I have, in the order I use them. I start with the #3000 Masahiro in this set.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o01_s00

Then a #6000 King
Amazon.com: King 6000 Grit Whetstone S-1: Kitchen & Dining

Then a #8000 Taidea
TAIDEA 8000 Grit Knife / Razor Corundum Whetstone Sharpening Stone: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Then I finish with a #12000 Shapton M5
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s01

Today I spent about 20 mins or so on each, more time the finer I get. However, for some reason, It just wont yield a smooth shave compared to my Edwin Jagger DE. Any advice? I would much rather use my kamisori as oppose to my DE

Time means nothing effectiveness if everything


Kamisori are a funny kind of razor they are extremely difficult to set up correctly without damaging them and getting them out of geometry,, but once they are set up they are much easier to maintain..

If you haven't ever honed one you are in for a struggle

if you google "gssixgun Kamisori honing" I have a vid up on how to do one but I warn ya it is NOT as easy as I make it look in that vid

Yes, not easy. I watched many videos over and over and managed, somehow, somewho, to get lucky.


Mike

Glen's honing video of the Kamisori worked well for me. That said, I would suggest sending the first one out for honing. Then you now what a proper honing can accomplish!
~Richard

You're linky no worky but if this is yours you're in trouble.
RARE Tamahagane Shizu Saburo J apanese Straight Razor Shaving Sword Katana A 60 | eBay

You will face more than the struggle Glen talks about.
The ridge line (shinogi) is curved. This line is like the spine of a western razor whch guides the honed edge to its shape.
The face has been ground to hide/repair wear & without a straight grind your edge will be equally uneven.

A skilled grinder may be able to repair the geometry for you but as it is this is not a plain hone job.

Nice Kamisori......

Just wondering.....

They are calling this mint secondhanded......
To me near the point it seems like it has a chip in the edge. Or is it the lighting in the pic?

I think that the King 6 K is a crappy stone for razors ,as he cleanes the scratches fast ,but does not leave an sharp edge .
The polish of my Suehiro 1/3 K ,and the wellow 3 K side is better, than the King 6 k and the edge is much sharper.
Taidea 8 K is a hard stone ,betwen a water stone and an oil stone . A hard and very good stone ,for razors .
There is now a 10 k and i will buy it as i speak with a guy that has it ant he say that is amazing .

Gotta agree with Glen
They are a PITA to set,
I was surprised how long it took to get mine set from what looked good with very little home wear.
I did mine as per Glens video but used a 10:1 ratio

Jostraco....I'm right there with you. My new kamisori used to (past tense) shave like a dream. Then the maid got a hold of it. I don't know what the hell she did...but now I've been trying to rehone it. It's much harder to get right than my western razors...and I still haven't gotten it right.

The more out of wack they are the harder they are to hone and it ain't a direct ratio. If the razor is seriously off it can take a bunch of work to get them right and that's if you know what you are doing.

I'd be ashamed to say how long it's taken me to get the pass around razors shaving good.

Sounds like Glen is asking for it, so make your life easy and send it to him for honing, then you can simply maintain it. :rofl2:

Another consideration is how the user intends to shave with the kamisori, with one or both sides. If honed using traditional ratios, the Ura (stamped side) facing down toward the face can be very harsh. As stated, properly setting up the Kamisori is extremely important.

I notice no difference and/ because the ratio of( strokes of each hone type) per side of the bevel remains the same for each side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

Another consideration is how the user intends to shave with the kamisori, with one or both sides. If honed using traditional ratios, the Ura (stamped side) facing down toward the face can be very harsh. As stated, properly setting up the Kamisori is extremely important.

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Why would that be ? Harshness is about a rough edge , I thought.
End user controls everything else like lather & angle etc...

Using the traditional 10:1 or 7:1 ratios will yield the steeper angle on the Omote side of most Kamisori. If the user lays the Ura almost flat on the face this may mitigate the harshness or discomfort I speak of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

Using the traditional 10:1 or 7:1 ratios will yield the steeper angle on the Omote side of most Kamisori. If the user lays the Ura almost flat on the face this may mitigate the harshness or discomfort I speak of.

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That's what I do ~ flat on the face with ura. No harshness. I don't hone to ratios. I hone it like any single bevel tool but yeah, omote gets dominance on the stone.

Like I said end user controls the shave. All razors shave harsh at the wrong angle.

I believe most Kamisori user complaints are a result of user error, either from shaving angle or extreme pressure. It's weird because the shave angle Omote down is actually built in. I enjoy Kamisori shaving very much, I try and get one in at least once a week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

Using the traditional 10:1 or 7:1 ratios will yield the steeper angle on the Omote side of most Kamisori. If the user lays the Ura almost flat on the face this may mitigate the harshness or discomfort I speak of.

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This is interesting. The kamisori has the same edge as a chisel. In wood working, you learn quickly that using a chisel flat side down to shave something off usually results in a "dig". Using a chisel "bevel down" or "flat up" allows one to whisk shavings off the top with little risk.

Unless, as Bayamontate says, you lay the flat back hard on the surface of the plank. Then the chisel will "shave" perfectly. Problem is...the face is a much more conforming/deforming surface than maple. Hard to be 'perfectly flat' on a surface like jello.

Except that a Kamisori is actually still two hollows, it is not "Like" a chisel or a like a Microtome

It is an Asymmetrical grind, not a Western Double Hollow, nor a Chisel nor a Single Hollow grind like a Microtome..

A Kamisori actually has two un-equal hollow grinds which brings me back to my first post in this thread

"A Kamisori is a funny kind of Razor" :p

Yes...you are correct.

Safe to say a Kamisori is a Kamisori and you can't compare it to anything else.

If you shave with both sides and hone it in the classic manner the stamped side will seem harsh however I think that is because many use it or try and use it like a western with symmetrical sides. I've always found when you switch sides you need to switch technique too as far as angle goes especially.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Safe to say a Kamisori is a Kamisori and you can't compare it to anything else.

If you shave with both sides and hone it in the classic manner the stamped side will seem harsh however I think that is because many use it or try and use it like a western with symmetrical sides. I've always found when you switch sides you need to switch technique too as far as angle goes especially.

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So, do you use more or less of an angle to your face?

Mine shaves very well but I can definitely tell when I switch sides.

Thanks

BTW, I have used Glen's technique with excellent results but my Kami was new.

I add about 6º of angle extra to the stamped side for my face. The other side is used almost flat against my face. It acts like a regular straight there. Raising the spine of the Kamisori stamped side more changes the attack angle to about the same as a regular straight blade.
Practice make the wa Kamisori a nice shave.
~Richard

For me the Omote side is flat on the face, the stamped side at a bit of an angle, this works fine always.

Thanks. I use a little more angle than that on both sides and get a great shave. May try backing off the angle a little for comparisons sake.

I hone many new Iwasaki and vintage Kamisori's and as Glen as already stated they are possibly the most difficult razor for a beginner to hone IMO, there's no two Kamisori's the same and because of the more prominent onesided bevel this is where most of your strokes will go they always will develop a burr very quickly while honing them, so it's a case of really being able to call on much of your knowledge and honing experience when dealing with these razors.