Fixing slight frown/bevel

[nolamike]

I have a Dovo razor that has been my regular shaver for more than 10 years. It has a very slight frown on it, which of course is from me (it took a lot of abuse/rusty edge in the past that took a lot of honing to repair). The bevel in the middle is more pronounced, particularly in the middle, on one side. The bevel is what made me look for the frown. It actually shaves pretty good.
1. Is the frown the cause of the bevel problem? I would think the bevel from a frown would be the same on both sides, though different at the heel/toe (which mine is as well). So is there a warp in the blade or something that I'm not seeing?
2. How to repair? My coarsest stone is 1k. Circular strokes on that until the frown is gone? Should one edge (maybe the one with less bevel?) get more work than the other?

[Steve56]

Pictures of the bevel and spine would help.

I doubt I'd brute force a 10 year old razor if it's shaving well, why remove more metal?

If you honed a lot on one side in the middle to remove rust, that could certainly produce what you're describing.

Cheers, Steve

[jfk742]

You can correct it on your 1k. How bad is the frown? You may just need to tape the spine and go for it, if it's really bad I would think about dropping down in grit and bread knife it.

Lap your hones, then:

I assume your blade has a slight warp and you will need to use a slight rolling x on one side. If your blade looks like this )| its on the stone if you don't roll it you effectively only hone the middle of the blade therefore causing a frown.

What I like to do when there is a slight frown or even the edge is straight but looks like this (| when on your hone is keep the blade like this (| and use a just a straight or heal leading stroke with lightish pressure and then go crazy. Eventually your bevel will even up on that side. On the other side use a rolling x and a sharpie. You will eventually find the correct stroke to evenly create a new bevel, when you do, just make sure to repeat it on that side all the way through your finisher.

To save steal I stay on the (| side maybe 5-7 to 1 strokes. Continually checking the bevels will apex in the middle at some point in the process.

[nolamike]

You can correct it on your 1k. How bad is the frown? You may just need to tape the spine and go for it, if it's really bad I would think about dropping down in grit and bread knife it.

Lap your hones, then:

I assume your blade has a slight warp and you will need to use a slight rolling x on one side. If your blade looks like this )| its on the stone if you don't roll it you effectively only hone the middle of the blade therefore causing a frown.

What I like to do when there is a slight frown or even the edge is straight but looks like this (| when on your hone is keep the blade like this (| and use a just a straight or heal leading stroke with lightish pressure and then go crazy. Eventually your bevel will even up on that side. On the other side use a rolling x and a sharpie. You will eventually find the correct stroke to evenly create a new bevel, when you do, just make sure to repeat it on that side all the way through your finisher.

To save steal I stay on the (| side maybe 5-7 to 1 strokes. Continually checking the bevels will apex in the middle at some point in the process.

Definitely don't think I need to bread knife it (scares me on my favorite razor). Not sure what these symbols (| )| illustrate. Hadn't heard of the rolling X, but isn't this "cheating"? Shouldn't I be able to get a straight edge/bevel using just flat strokes?

Pictures of the bevel and spine would help.

I doubt I'd brute force a 10 year old razor if it's shaving well, why remove more metal?

If you honed a lot on one side in the middle to remove rust, that could certainly produce what you're describing.

Cheers, Steve

I'll post pics. Shaving well, but could likely be better. I didn't hone more on 1 side (at least I don't think so). The rust I was trying to remove had eaten the edge. It wasn't cosmetic.

[pinklather]

I was going to mention a superb tip from the honorable sixgunner about some blade needing to be honed like they have a smile - 'cause they WANT to frown, but your description of the asymetry of the bevel seems a clear indicator of some warp.

You'll prob. notice that the heel & toe on the opposite side to the fat belly bevel are also wider. There's lots of stuff on how to work w/ warp, but the sad truth is that it will always be a PITA. How much warp determines how much work it will be on a regular basis.

I have a couple w/ some warp & I don't enjoy working them. They're just costly & handsome & shave well when I devote the time. If its a really beloved blade - maybe its worth the hassel. If not - I wouldn't bother. I keep one edge of my fav. finishing stone radiused (curved edge) for just this purpose, though I'll often simplify the hassel w/ a spray or pasted strop. If you work a radiused stone edge - remember the pressure from even the weight of the blade is greatly multiplied 'cause of the tiny segment of the edge having to bear the weight. I try to support some of the weight of the blade while I very carefully stroke (often accompanied by some colorful language).

[nolamike]

You'll prob. notice that the heel & toe on the opposite side to the fat belly bevel are also wider.

Yup.

If its a really beloved blade - maybe its worth the hassel. If not - I wouldn't bother.

It is. Went through hurricane katrina with me, hence the rust.
Ok, so it sounds like there's a likely warp causing the frown. Question is, will this affect my shave? Even if I have a fat/narrow bevel, as long as the whole blade is contacting the stone, the very edge should be even, right?
I really need to take some pics, will do when I get home.

[cpcohen1945]

PMFJI --

Warp and frown are independent. A blade can have either one, or both.

Warped and/or frowning blades will shave well, _if_ they are sharp end-to-end. Getting them sharp end-to-end, that's where the trouble lies.

If it frowns -- the bevel in the center of the blade is narrower than the bevel at the ends, _on both sides of the blade_ -- fix the frown first. You must hone down the bevels at the ends, until the bevel at the middle is as wide as at the ends.

. . . If there's no warp, that shouldn't require a rolling stroke. A flat stroke (repeated enough times!) will work.

If it's warped, the bevel on one side will be narrowest at the ends, and the bevel on the other side will be widest at the ends.

. . . To hone a seriously-warped blade, you _must_ use a rolling stroke. It's not "cheating".

With a slightly-warped blade, you _might_ get away with using a flat stroke. The bevels will be uneven, but if you're lucky, there will be a smooth, sharp edge end-to-end.


. Charles

[Utopian]

"If it frowns -- the bevel in the center of the blade is narrower than the bevel at the ends, _on both sides of the blade_ -- fix the frown first. You must hone down the bevels at the ends, until the bevel at the middle is as wide as at the ends."

A frown is unrelated to the width of the bevels. You have to repair the edge by removing steel to convert the frowning edge to a straight edge. The width of the bevels when that occurs is irrelevant. The edge can be straightened by honing with the spine lifted off of the hone, initially at about 45 degrees and gradually lowered as you get closer to a straight edge. You can check for that straight edge by holding the blade perpendicular to a flat surface, like your hone, and holding both up to a light. The light coming through the gap will tell you if you have the frown removed yet.

Once the frown is removed you can move on to considering the warp. Lay the blade flat on its side on the hone. See if both the edge and the spine are making contact with the hone. A common example of a warped blade will have only the middle of the edge or spine touching the hone on one side and only the heel and toe touching on the other side.

[jfk742]

I agree with cpcohen.

If you are looking down the edge you may see that the blade is warped. It is usually so slight that you won't or can't see it. It manifests itself as an uneven bevel assuming your hones are lapped and the grind is some what true. The result is eventually you will end up with a frown, it's just nature of the warp. The same thing would happen if your hones were high in the middle.

The symbols, at least how I was trying to describe what I believe the problem is:

|= your lapped hone
( & )= the warp in your blade

I was trying to show the orientation of blade warp to hone.

I was trying to make a visual as text is some what misleading and difficult to understand. Think I may have over thought it.

Maybe 2 of 40+ razors I have can you just lay flat and go on both sides without eventually ending up with geometry problems.

[Euclid440]

Yes, sounds like it’s warped, not unusual. If it has a frown, it is probably from using a straight stroke and/or too much pressure or both.

Breadknife is not a four letter word…it’s 10. It’s just another tool, as is an X stroke.

Cheating? Are you serious? You do what the razor needs.

Probably have to bread knife the edge straight and hone, with an X stroke. Start with a straight edge, then put an edge on it, photos will allow better advice.

What other stones do you have?