Bevel issue? Or what?

So I am still pretty new to this so I could really use some help right now. When I got my SR I got a norton 4/8k so that I could hone it myself instead of paying someone every couple of months. It took me about 4 or 5 tries but I finally got the edge pretty nice to the point where it was a comfortable and pretty close shave. I Know there is still some technique issues but I think I might have a bad bevel.

The past week or, Like I said, I finally had some pretty good shaves and the razor felt nice and sharp. However today one side of my neck is significantly closer than the other. (I have a full beard on the face so I really only shave my neck and clean up the cheeks a bit.) Is it possible that this is a bevel issue? That one side of the razor is sharper than the other?

Although I know my technique isn't the best right now, I doubt that this is a technique issue. I say this because the side that is closer is the side that I am less confident with. I have more nicks, and close calls on this side than the other. I am often correcting my angle on this side so that the razor glides smoothly.

If this is a bevel issue is there any suggestions to helping with this? When I set my bevel I do a set of circles with each hand to try to avoid a biased edge (better on heel or toe). Could this be worse for me? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

With REALLY REALLY bad techniques and effort I guess it would be possible to actually offset an edge :shrug: and create a edge that is at a different angle on one side -vs- the other, but not actually a sharper edge ..

Geometrically the razor is designed to make a centered bevel, so if the bevel was offset it would either have to be a bad mis-grind or a serious screw up honing..

I am assuming you have watched the Vids, the only thing you posted that gives me pause is this statement

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Originally Posted by freddi

When I set my bevel I do a set of circles with each hand to try to avoid a biased edge (better on heel or toe). Could this be worse for me?

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Not really sure of what you are doing there or why

When using circles you want to be turning them "Into the edge" heel to toe, and you are normally using your dominant hand and flipping the razor to accomplish that..


Edit: Was just thinking about the circles.. I guess it could be possible that if you were turning into the edge on one side and away on the other you could be creating reversing Stria that might make one side slice better then the other while shaving but I am really reaching with that theory :p

The reason for the switching of hands was that before I was getting a very uneven edge. And instead of trying the same thing over and over, I tried something a little different. I assumed that I was lifting up or pushing down with a hand, so I did one round with each hand to avoid that un even edge.

I wasn't really paying attention to the direction of the circles either, I didn't think it would matter on that. I will try to reset the bevel tomorrow keeping all this in mind. I also re watched some of the videos so there will be a few things I will be doing differently as well, such as keeping my elbow up. Hopefully this all helps me get a better edge.

When I started honing my push stroke was much heavier than my pull stroke and resulted in deeper stria on the push side. Once I addressed that my bevels on the push side got much more consistent. May be related to your issue.

The closer side, the one you are less confident with...it might be a pressure issue with the gingerly wielded off hand versus the manly on hand...but gssixgun would be the man for honing issues. I can only throw spitballs and off speed pitches.
Good luck...generally, I would forget a shave to shave analysis and focus on the long game...and find someone to teach you honing...in person, if at all possible.

I woke up thinking about this post. I guess because I like math that doesn't involve numbers.
As far as one side of the razor being 'sharper' than the other, with the two sides of the face supporting this idea: in a normal two pass shave each side of the face receives both sides of the razor. Edge down first pass N-S, edge up, second pass S-N.
Additionally, I believe where the bevel meets is where sharp lives, at the tippy top of the triangle. To visualize this, think of the tippy top of the triangle created by the bevel. I don't think there is a 'side' to sharp, but I could easily be wrong. Any discussion that I have read on the Forum about bevels usually have to do with size or unevenness and never bring sharp into the equation (my razor shaves good but the bevel is ugly). To sum up, the two planes of the bevel do not have their own edge.
Bonus Input: If your spine is funny, your bevel will be funny. The way to correct funny is honing while riding a Tilt-A-Whirl.

I don't think it's possible for one side of the bevel to be sharper than the other. You can get different angles if the bevel is asymmetrical as with a kamisori grind - but, in my experience, that has never made a difference to how either side performs.

I'd say the differences you are experiencing one side to another is a lack of consistent technique - angle is very important with a straight and takes some time to nail properly.

Gotta go with Gsixxgun on this one. If the bevel meets in the middle it would be sharp, but if the bevel was offset to the spine axially it would take a different angle to achieve the same cutting action. Hope this makes sense, sorry for my poor explanation. Instead of being an isosceles triangle at the top of the bevel it would be slightly right angle one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by JoeSomebody

Instead of being an isosceles triangle at the top of the bevel it would be slightly right angle one way or the other.

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This is what I was thinking the issue was. The wife is going out tonight so I will spend some time in my cave that most call the basement trying to fix this. In the past I have tried just straight push and pull stroke on the 4/8k and have done circles. Are there any suggestions to which would work better?
The last time I used circles and got pretty good results. I am planning on doing that unless there is a better way. Here is what I was planning on doing:
- 20 circles per side with pressure on 4k
- 20 circles per side with little to no pressure on 4k
- 20 circles per side with no pressure on 8k
- 6 x strokes on 8k
- Finish with a good stropping (no CrOx, My strop is just 2 sided leather- suede and smooth)

Do More on 8k to smoothen it further. Just my 2c though :-)

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Originally Posted by jumissa

Do More on 8k to smoothen it further. Just my 2c though :-)

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How much would you suggest? And more circles? Or should I do 20 circles and a number of regular and x strokes?

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Originally Posted by freddi

This is what I was thinking the issue was. The wife is going out tonight so I will spend some time in my cave that most call the basement trying to fix this. In the past I have tried just straight push and pull stroke on the 4/8k and have done circles. Are there any suggestions to which would work better?
The last time I used circles and got pretty good results. I am planning on doing that unless there is a better way. Here is what I was planning on doing:
- 20 circles per side with pressure on 4k
- 20 circles per side with little to no pressure on 4k
- 20 circles per side with no pressure on 8k
- 6 x strokes on 8k
- Finish with a good stropping (no CrOx, My strop is just 2 sided leather- suede and smooth)

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In Red is what I find that seems off

What do you mean Straight strokes ???

Circles are for Bevel setting they're rather aggressive and leave odd stria for Push Cutting which is what a SR does,, they need to come out..

20 circles per side with pressure on 4k
20 X strokes per side with lessening pressure on 4k
20 X per side with no pressure on 8k
10 Absolutely perfect X strokes as the 8k goes from wet to damp as slow and perfect as possible


Keeping in mind that the pressure recommendations are still making sure that the edge is in contact with the hone at all times ...
The water ripple needs to always either be at the front of the edge or the edge in undercutting the ripple

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Originally Posted by freddi

This is what I was thinking the issue was.

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If the inclusive angle on a razor is in the 15 - 20 degree range then a bias towards one side will require only a very slight adjustment in the angle you hold your razor at to compensate. In reality you get far more variance in shaving angle between two different razors than either side of the same one. Once you have more experience you will not even have to think about the angle - it becomes almost intuitive as you hold the razor against your face.

No matter how much you play on your hones, you will not achieve that experience any sooner.

So a lot going on.
Firstly, what kind of razor is it?
How many laps are you stropping?
Are your stones lapped and beveled?
Are you setting the bevel on the 4K?
What method are you using to determine the bevel is fully set?
What are you using for magnification?

Formulaic honing almost never works, you have to do what the edge needs. Get some good magnification and look at the edge and bevel. If you see chipping, those chips need to be removed by fully setting the bevel and removing all the cross grain stria, then remove all the 4k stria with the 8k, however many laps as it takes. Stropping on “razor quality”, Chrome Oxide will polish the bevel and edge for comfort and add bit of keenness.

Circles work well for rapid metal removal, because of the alternating cross direction. Looking at the stria you will see random direction from circles, which can cause chipping at the edge. Straight laps will give you a straighter edge, which is the goal of honing. Make sure you are honing all the way to the edge, reading the first three posts in the honing forum are packed with honing information.

Changing hands while honing, adds more variables to the process.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So a lot going on.
Firstly, what kind of razor is it?
How many laps are you stropping?
Are your stones lapped and beveled?
Are you setting the bevel on the 4K?
What method are you using to determine the bevel is fully set?
What are you using for magnification?

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The razor is an "Imperial" Razor. I got it on Etsy.ca from a seller in the UK. Doubt its a legitimate Imperial blade, but it is a carbon steel, that I know.
I am after honing I have stropped 25 laps on suede and 50 laps on smooth leather. Before shaving I am doing 10 laps on suede and approximately 50 on smooth (I don't actually count the laps before a shave, but it would be close to 50)
Lapped stones
I am setting on the 4k
I have been testing on my forearm to check
I have no magnification, just the naked eye.

Thanks for all the help here guys!

ALL FIXED UP! Thanks again for everyone's suggestions here.

Last night I spent some time hitting the stone and came out with a great edge! I took a closer look at my blade last night and somehow I had 2 bevels on it. And I could see that without any loupe or anything. So I knew there was an issue there. So I did a combination of everyone's suggestions and it all worked. I can sure say the shave this morning was much better! And EVEN!

Here is what I ended up doing:

Started with giving the stone a good lapping. That made quite a difference right away.

Like I said I had two different bevels on the blade, so I spent a good time doing circles on the 4k

Approximately 50 circles per side on the 4k with pressure
20 circles per side with light pressure
40 x strokes on 8k no pressure
10 very slow and steady x strokes on the 8k

It was definitely better after this. But I thought it could still be a bit sharper. So I followed this with a pyramid:
10/10, 8/8, 5/5, 3/5, 1/5
Then finished off with about 10 minutes of just x strokes no pressure on the 8k (this got that edge really nice).

Finish with a good stropping, 40 on the suede and 100 on the smooth leather. Shave this morning was a delight. Close and comfortable!

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help here! It all paid off!

Told ya :-D jk. Grats for a New honer :-)

Nothing more satisfying than getting your first comfortably keen edge.

One more thing. For all the time you spent on the 8k getting it "there", it seems to me that you should have spent just a little more time on the 4k before moving on. I like to test my edge after each progression. I have developed my own bench marks for each one and what my edge should look and cut like. I use arm hair cutting at skin level for a 4k. Develop your own sharpness tests as everyone's hair or thumb pad or nail is different. Also when your about done on a given hone in your progression try using gssixgun's suggestion of finishing strokes until the hone is damp. You will get the most out of the Norton with that method, and therefore spend less time on the next hone in your progression.

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Originally Posted by jfk742

Also when your about done on a given hone in your progression try using gssixgun's suggestion of finishing strokes until the hone is damp. You will get the most out of the Norton with that method, and therefore spend less time on the next hone in your progression.

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Thanks for the suggestion. I will have to remember that at the next hone session. Hopefully not for a month or two. I am looking into some CrOx and a linen strop for the occasional refresh to get more life between hones. I definitely did those finishing strokes on the 8k side. Next time I will try it on the 4k as well.

Hmmm, I wonder how much pressure pressure is....:thinking:

My previous post may sound goofy, but I am actually point out the "Art," if you will, of honing. I fear that this art may only be fully realized by honing a jillion razors. I keep a few razors very keen and this is absolutely the most fun that I have with this endeavour. I strive to be a journeyman with my little stable. If a razor has issues beyond my basic honing skills, I break like a sissy.
Well, I like taking pitchers also.

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Originally Posted by freddi

However today one side of my neck is significantly closer than the other. (I have a full beard on the face so I really only shave my neck and clean up the cheeks a bit.) Is it possible that this is a bevel issue? That one side of the razor is sharper than the other? .

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Is it possible you are not stretching the skin enough or the same on both sides of your face?