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I'm new to honing my own razors. I have honed three different blades so far and I haven't had one pass the HHT. The issue I'm having is that they all have shaved great, not that that the issue. I just thought that it should pass that test since it shaves well. Any info on what's going on here?
HHT is just a "test" some use to see if it has a sharp enough blade to use to shave with. Only real way to show it is shave ready is to shave with it.
The hanging hair test needs to be figured out before hand using a know shave ready razor. Some hones are notoriously bad for not passing the hanging hair test but leave very smooth shaving edges. Just because a blade asses a hanging hair test is no guarantee that it will shave smoothly. If it is calibrated correctly it is an indicator that a blade has achieved a certain level of sharpness. Truly the test of how well a razor shaves is in the shave.
All such tests need to be calibrated. I've told this story many times before but here goes again.
Before going to my first Frozen Toe Meet-up at Mike Blue's place in (I believe) 2008, I assumed that I could not hone worth a damn. Everybody on the forum kept talking about their honing being able to tree top their arm hair. Mine never did. My blades just bent the hairs over so obviously my edges were not sharp enough. At the meet-up I watched Randy hone a razor and when he was done he checked the edge on his arm hair. I eagerly asked him if I could try out the blade on my arm. I was very relieved to find that his edge was not able to cut my arm hair either.
So, if you have the arm hair of a three year old girl, like I do, then tree topping is not a viable test for you. The hair on my head is also quite fine; and so on the rare occasion that I feel the need to try an HHT, and for me it is rare, I pluck a chest hair and use that.
Not all hair is the same. For that reason, not all HHTs will perform the same. If your razors shave you well then that is the most important thing. IF you feel the need to keep playing with the HHT, then try out some other hairs!
I never get a HHT yet my shaves are great. I do however use my arm hair tell me if the razor is cutting though. when the razor tree tops then I'm really happy but doesn't happen all the time. I think it is a mater of calibrating your stones and razors and I'm not there yet.
I think letting your face and results of the shave be the best test.
Check out this video by gssixgun on test shave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93zQP7CToWQ
Are you trying the HHT before or after stropping?
This is all to true. I have one that i cleaned up the blade and made new scales and honed . It passes the HHT but shaves like a garden hoe. just plumb awful. i have re-honed it many times and still the same results. Now i haven't given up and want until the blade is honed away. The only true test is the shave test.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
How are you setting the bevel?Quote:
Originally Posted by rhensley
To the op in addition to all hair not being created equally. Not all finishes are equal. Razors I finish on paste and norton 8k I can pass hht. Ones I finish on my black ark and cnat rarely will pass the hht.
I use the same hones i've always use 1K-3-5-8-12K naniwa and finish on the Suehiro 20K then strop. I've re-Honed at least 6 times but i'm hard headed i'll keep after it until it shaves good then put it up or throw it away. the blade has some devils spit at the spine but the edge and above it is good. How knows maybe the next time will be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Castel33
A question for the more experienced honers: I've been wondering - do blades with a bit more of a "jagged" (though still very fine) edge "catch" the hairs better than those with slightly smoother edges and therefore are more likely to pass a HHT?
Reservedly, yes. This is why sometimes people think they are doing something wrong when the edge from a lower grit can catch hairs but as they progress up to higher grits they no longer do.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR
You will hear that the HHT is meaninglessness by some. You will hear that visual tests are meaningless by others. And some will even say "yeah, it shaved but will it hold that edge?" At the end of the day you have to know what these tests mean to you. Pro honed edges are great to inspect in every aspect of testing so you can figure out what to expect. I use a HHT with my wife's hair that is fairly fine. I know m in the neighborhood when it passes that test. Prior to that I will use the TNT, visual inspection under magnification, and tree topping to see where things are. I now know what to expect. That's harder to accomplish than honing.
I have tried it both before and after stropping. I think I'm going to go without that test, if I'm happy with the shave, I'm good. Thank you for helping
I had a suspicion this was the case. I can get a razor to tree-top my arm hair pretty decent. But when I pluck a piece of hair from my head (long, fine, and curly - think Shirley Temple) and try with that it seems to just glide over the edge. I've driven myself up a wall trying to get a razor to pass the HHT with one of those. Closest I've come is getting the blade to catch, then split the hair in half long ways. I wouldn't believe it was possible if I hadn't seen it first hand. I've given up on the HHT, I'll stick with TNT, TPT, tree-topping, and of course - feedback from the shave itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Just in case you haven't tried it, wetting the hair/drying it a minute or two before your test might help. You might also find rubbing your palm on your arm a few times might help. Another problem can be if you use body wash in stead of soap - it makes the hair really slick and difficult for the razor to catch.
I don't think *any* of my razors pass the hanging hair test with my hair, no matter how sharp they are.
If you have a brush you don't like, you can pluck badger hair which should be stiff enough for the test. (You could try snatching some hair from a German Sheppard, but I will not be held responsible if you get bit!) All these test are meaningful *if* they are calibrated... These tests are used by some to judge where the edge is at... I don't use the test ever, as it does not work for me. I judge my edges by using my moustache. My arm hair is so short and fine, it's also useless as there are no trees to top!
No matter what method you use to test, the ultimate and ONLY test that really matters, is the shave test. If the razor shaves comfortably, it's where is should be. The HHT and other tests are only to see if you are getting close while honing, and only use them if they work, and are meaningful to you. Just because someone can perform a HHT on a razor, it does not mean it is sharp enough to shave someone else. Some very toothy edges will pass an HHT but be useless for shaving. So forget the HHT as your razors are clearly shaving you just fine, you just need to find a test that is meaningful to you while you are honing.
Regards
Christain
If they shave well then that's it. Are you shaving with our razor or running around cutting people's hanging hair? Lol, but really , aren't we just shaving with these things? It seems your getting what you need cause it shaves, so don't worry about a test like that, Good luck. Tc
I've been happily honing my own razors for several years now using Naniwa stones and the sequence that was proposed some time ago by gssixgun. I never even attempt all these tests, and I don't even know how to do the infamous HHT. His process on a reasonably sound razor produces a great shaving edge. About all I look for is the stage on each stone when the water is nearly evaporated, whether it runs up over the edge as I move the razor. that's not much of a sign where there is a lot of water on the stone, but when the water is about gone, only a really fine edge will make the water run up and over. I think we obsess too much about all these "tests" when there are too many variables: how coarse your own arm, leg, chest, armpit or pubic hair is, how you hold the hair, how you hold the razor, etc.
When I'm done with a razor, next morning when I shave, I give the newly honed razor maybe one stroke. If it shaves nicely on that one stroke, I finish up with it. If not, I fall back on a known-good-shaving razor and return the newly honed one to the stones for next time.
I wish I had the confidence to do it that way. But since I'm fairly new I tend to do a lot of testing. Thumb pad to check the bevel set, and to be sure it's uniformly sharp at any given stage. Lots of checking under a loupe. About the time I'm finishing the 8k run I'll test it on my arm hair. If a razor can't cut that without pulling it needs work from where I sit.Quote:
Originally Posted by LawsonStone
As I get better, the tests become less frequent and the loupe spends more time on the table and less in my hand. Perhaps one day I'll have it down to where all I feel the need to do is watch the waterline. I just recently learned the importance of that last line. Best piece of advice I've seen repeatedly on the forum and never took.
A couple of things I found which helped me be confident throughout the progression, and learn how to feel the edge without testing, was using the marker, and using pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
If you have a practice razor apply the marker to the edge then do circles. See how few it takes to remove the ink. Re-apply then do x-strokes, and see how few laps to remove the ink. If there are spots where the ink isn't completely removed try other strokes or apply a finger to the area or a little torque. Do this plenty of times on as many different stones as you have until you're really confident that you can get every part of the edge on the stone.
Pressure can really speed up learning how to feel the edge. Rough up your razor on 1000 with slurry. Just do lots of circles so you know the entire edge is at that grit, then move on to the 3 or 4k. Relatively light strokes until you sense how the edge feels on the stone (it should feel really rough) - maybe about 10? Now do circles with lots of pressure - you'll feel the edge change quickly - then back to light x-strokes and it will feel a lot smoother. If you jump up to an 8k you can do the same thing and feel much the same process.
The purpose of this is to provide feelings of contrast - which are pretty easy to feel. Also you don't have to worry about making the best shave ready edge you can - so it takes some of the pressure of yourself.
I don't think anyone can sense every single scratch on an edge - but it's easy to sense when an edge and a stone agree with each other. As long as you've set a decent bevel, and you know that you can get every part of your edge on the stone, going through the grits is pretty straightforward. :) Not sure if that helps you, lol.
I have a Gold Dollar lying around, I won't shed a tear if I grind it away experimenting on hone progression lol. I might just do that, spend some time playing with the hones and focusing more on feel and feedback than technique and counting strokes.
It's quite easy to tell at the higher grit levels. The razor practically sticks to the 8k, C12k, and B.hones when it's close.
The hairs on the top of my arms are tougher than the hairs on the bottom and inner elbow. It took awhile, but eventually I figured out how each region of hair corresponded to sharpness and shave quality, so my HHT is a fairly fine-resolution test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I can get great shaves with razors that have trouble with my very soft arm hairs. For me it's the shave that counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheferik
Something I love to ask at this point in time with a new honer :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Cheferik
How does your HHT work with a new DE blade ????
Also a get way to learn how a tpt should feel on the thumbQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Never got a HHT with one of my razors and when i write this down im thinking never try to do that test. the only real test is shave, the rest is wath you hang on those tests
Well this may be true, but a hht5 usually gives a good shave and is a great sign that your honing is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalerolf
Imo the honing is done when the shave is supreme. Why need of a HHT when you have your face.
I have People seen doing a HHT with a good outcome and they have a bad shave with the same razor as they did a minute before a HHT.
When I am honing, I use my HHT (calibrated and all, with hair from the same strand every time, moistened, at approximately a 45 degree angle) along the later stages i.e. before finishing, when I'm trying to squeeze the last bits of keenness out of an edge. So I usually end up doing the HHT a bunch of times (usually three-four times) to check my progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalerolf
This going back and forth between checking the edge and fine-tuning it would be nigh impossible with a shave test. For me, the HHT is a gauging tool before the finish more than a final result test, even though I do it at the very end just to make sure.
Oh, and I bet my HHT is more calibrated than most people's shave test. For me, even with the same shaving set-up my lather may vary, my skin varies and my focus varies. Which is why I don't use a standardised shave test; too many variables. I hone, I gauge, I hone some more, I gauge, I strop, I shave. If I feel the edge is not smooth enough, I do a bunch of strokes on water only on my coticule. Even if the problem was with my lather, skin or focus, there is no adverse effect in doing so.
And I never had an outright "bad" shave with a razor I honed and got a great HHT result on. Except the one where I didn't check the HHT at the tip. And it didn't cut stubble properly at the tip. The rest of the edge was smooth sailing.
You're like me, the HHT doesn't work for you for whatever reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheferik
I want to thank everyone for the advice and comments to my question. I have come to the conclusion that the HHT is not the test for me right now. I think I'm going to hone when I need to shave until I get better with honing.
I haven't tried it with a DE blade. What I did find out is that I can cut the tops of my thigh hair with no problem. I think my arm hair is just to thin.