Can't set the bevel.

Hey fellas, this is my first post here on SRP. I've been lurking a while... A few things...

I have shaved with 6 straights before, all pro honed. Anyway, I picked up an e-bay junker and I went for it trying to get it shave ready. I worked a dmt 1200 then threw on the coticule. I've literally been playing with the coticule for about 1.5 years and NEVER got a hht off my own hair, only something thicker like badger hair—which doesn't, for me, translate into a good shave.

Here's the thing tho... the thumb pad test wasn't very good tonight. IN fact, it feels as dull as dishwater. I'm all ready showing massive spine wear and despite all the swarf, I got nada. Tomato test is perfect, thumb nail test is good, thumb pad test feels off, way off.

I'm wondering what kind of pressure I need for bevel setting (I also have a King 1k). I'm wondering if it's possible I'm simply just not there yet, and this razor might take an hour or something.

On Another note—I'm putting my coticule away for a long time and getting a Norton 4/8. My cotis, I'm afraid I'll never get the hang of. Smooth shaves from some junkers I tinkered with before, but some the razor never cut my mustache area and it tugged like an ex-girlfriend when I went against the grain. Smooth, because the razor won't cut!

Can you put up a few pics ?....
I'm wondering whether the DMT or the King are the best option for setting bevels :shrug:

A synthetic 1K like the Naniwa or Chosera might be a better option.

You could include your location in your personal info and that way find a group or mentor
in your area.

There will be some honemeisters along soon who have far more experience than me and
they'll help you in the right direction :)

By the way, welcome to SRP !!

Where are you located? If you add your location to your member info, or declare it here, then someone nearby may make themselves available for one on one help, which is the best kind.

For a beginner to learn how to set a bevel, you are WAY better off using tape and changing it frequently, as in well before it wears through. If you are "showing massive spine wear," then you are screwing up your razor. Doing it right is much more important than doing a lot of wrong.

Hey guys, thanks for the quick response!

I'm in North Jersey. I'll definitely throw some tape on it. I'll get some pics up soon.

I want to start over, equipment wise. I really think cotis are inappropriate for me right now. I'm reading through the JANorton thread and wondering if Nortons are easier than cotis. Seems that way.

1. I'm still confused about razor pressure. When I hear "heavy pressure" to set the bevel I WHALE on that thang. No bueno.

2. I'll pick up a Norton 4/8 if you guys recommend that. Is the Norton 1k good? I read the "dedicated bevel setter" thread—do people still like that one? The Naniwa Super Stone?

3. Cotis are impossible for me. I've shaved with "attempted" edges from cotis—I get the smooth just fine. But the problem areas remain a problem. I actually get irritation from coti edges.

4. Do people here still use lapping film?

Norton's are way easier to learn especially the 4k/8k you get very repeatable results

Wow. You got a lot going on. Just a suggestion- maybe you would do better taking your pro honed razors and touch them up first before you jump into a full bevel set. I mean, natural stones are tough enough and then throw in what seems like a one stone hone on a coti. That there is a pretty tough challenge. Just a thought. Some like the punishment of doing things the hard way. I know I do :)

Heavy presure for a straight is pretty much only if the bevel is wrecked and you need to seriously wear that puppy down. Medium pressure to get the bevel together (for me and my meat hands, that's resting the weight of my hand or less on it, no down force) and light pressure (literally just the weight of the blade on the hone) to get the deep 1k gouges out.

Use the King. Usually* a diamond hone leaves you with a harsh edge to clean up. Plenty of folks here use the King for bevel setting and get good edges. I would wager same level as the Norton, if you don't want to spring for a Chosera yet just use what you have. When you get the Norton 4k/8k - continue using light pressure. Don't bear down, lighter is better.

So when you say eBay junker my mind goes to a razor with no bevel set. So really what we are talking about is not regular honing but restoration work. It is a cat of a different color. Next off when you use too much pressure on a razor it flexes and you hone above where the bevel is suppose to be and it will be a cold day and a lot of wear to get those bevels to meet. Speaking of meets you will learn more in a one day meet than you will in a month of honing alone and watching videos. A DMT is not really for honing razors either. It is kind of like using dynamite for fishing, yes you can get fish but it is unlikely to be the quality or specific kind you wanted. So pressure is your enemy until you understand when and how much. I kind of think that Steel is on the right track with starting with refreshing being a much easier route. Also the 1K is a much better starting point. The bevel is the foundation of your edge and unless you get it just so your final product will be lacking.

Your best bet is to hang out with someone who has some skills..... waay better than going it alone. I had to go it alone as I was the only one in my area that I knew of. It took me a long time and I really wore down that first Antique shop sub $20 razor. Today, it's still my favourite razor as it taught me almost everything I know about honing, but it still had to endure a lot of abuse.

1. If you are confused, you need to hang out with someone who can show you, or lighten up... waling on a razor will get you nothing but heavy spine wear. The blade is very thin and flexible, unless we're talking a near wedge razor. Putting too much pressure just causes the blade to flex, raising the actual edge off the hone and you can hone for hours never touching the edge... Adding *slight* torque to the razor *can*, when done correctly, speed up the honing process, but it's a very light torquing.... so light, gents like Gssixgun hesitate to even mention it, as too much is far worse that not enough. Tape that spine to prevent more wear and little more than the weight of the razor is all that is needed.

2. A Norton 4/8K combo is a fine hone... It is NOT the solution to your current problem, but it IS a fine hone and should go well between your 1K King and your Coticule hones. You do NOT need a 1K Norton, your 1K King is fine.... not the fastest, but in your case, fast is not a good thing.... Putting a brand new driver with little training in the seat of a formula one race car is NOT a recipe for success. The Naniwa Professional 1K is probably one of the best bevel setters out there, but if you cannot do it with a King 1K, you can't do it with the Naniwa either. The finest tools mean nothing if you have not developed the skill to use it well. Once you have the skill, you will have the experience to select the *right* hone for YOU, and that hone may or may not be what someone else likes.

3. The Coticules are excellent hones in skilled hands, your hands are not yet there, but they will be soon. The coti will serve you well down the road, but as you have found out, just buying an expensive stone does not make you an expert honemeister.

4. Honing films work, I've used them in the past, and again, they are not your solution, as they do not make you an experienced honer. Only time and practice can do that. I will say, I started with films as I simply could not afford hones, but I quickly learned that by the time you can get a decent edge out of films, you've spent so much time, not to mention money on glass plates and worn razors, you might as well have bought hones and a DMT 325 to flatten them.

Even the big guns in honing can happily use a 1K King, a 4/8 Norton and a Coticule to create fine edges. It's not what you use, it's how you use it.

Gssixguns motto reads as such:

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"
Very Respectfully - Glen

If nobody is close enough to give you a hand, at least watch Gssixguns videos on youtube. They are an excellent resource when learning to hone.

https://www.youtube.com/user/gssixgun/videos

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "We've all been where you are right now, and it just takes some time and practice" Zero

You say TNT is good but TPT is way off. This doesn't make sense to me. If the TNT is good, your bevel is set. If the bevel is set, TPT will be good. No offence, but if this is your first time setting a bevel, you probably don't really understand what a good TNT or TPT feels like yet. Will it shave arm or leg hair? A loupe may also be helpful for learning.

First off what kind of razor is it?
If it is a Gold Dollar you will have problems setting the bevel.

Second Do NOT use a DMT to set the bevel... This can result in micro chipping....

Third, Honing is an art... I know it's not rocket science or anything but there is a learning curve.


A wise man (-gssixgun) said something like this: "Honing isn't difficult, until it IS...." THIS IS SO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steel

Wow. You got a lot going on. Just a suggestion- maybe you would do better taking your pro honed razors and touch them up first before you jump into a full bevel set. I mean, natural stones are tough enough and then throw in what seems like a one stone hone on a coti. That there is a pretty tough challenge. Just a thought. Some like the punishment of doing things the hard way. I know I do :)

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You're telling me! Ha! Hey, sometimes keeping it simple is bliss. Like Granda said, life is just one good meal after another. Gotta roll with the punches.

The good news, I had fun honing. Law School is crazy. Sometimes the only thing that will get me out of my head from Constitutional Law is honing. Seriously. I love both. At least I'm pretty savvy at one of them. Can't win em all I figure. At least I got the Zen. If I can get shave ready, man, I'm looking at a serous past time here. I might have to stick a hone in my pocket!

I am in the camp of saving your money and use the hones you currently have.

What you need to do is set the bevel on the 1k King. This will be much easier at your current level then the Coti. For those new to bevel setting ifind the easiest test that it is set if it will cut leg or arm hair at skin level all along the edge. Once you have the edge doing that. Do the TNT so you can feel what that feels like. Then do 10 more strokes on the king. Then you can do tpt to see how that feels. Once you have done that for all the test you want to do you move on to the Coti.

For the Coti just use plain water no slurry and do 25 laps test tpt does it feel sharper. Will it cut arm hair above skin level. If not do 25 more and retest. Keep doing that till you get the results you want. Then strop and shave test.

Another option if you have other eBay razors around is to send one out and ask the honer only to set the bevel. Then when you get it back you can try to test to see how they work. The work your way up to a shave edge on your Coti.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Castel33

I am in the camp of saving your money and use the hones you currently have.

What you need to do is set the bevel on the 1k King. This will be much easier at your current level then the Coti. For those new to bevel setting ifind the easiest test that it is set if it will cut leg or arm hair at skin level all along the edge. Once you have the edge doing that. Do the TNT so you can feel what that feels like. Then do 10 more strokes on the king. Then you can do tpt to see how that feels. Once you have done that for all the test you want to do you move on to the Coti.

For the Coti just use plain water no slurry and do 25 laps test tpt does it feel sharper. Will it cut arm hair above skin level. If not do 25 more and retest. Keep doing that till you get the results you want. Then strop and shave test.

Another option if you have other eBay razors around is to send one out and ask the honer only to set the bevel. Then when you get it back you can try to test to see how they work. The work your way up to a shave edge on your Coti.

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UPDATE: The edge is much better!

I still can't seem to get any hht past a violin on the coticule, but the bevel was set. I guess I just thought with the Thumb Pad Test it needed to feel sticky the way it does now? But it shaved arm hairs off the King 1K. I used MUCH less pressure, and it felt more appropriate not to g crazy on it.

The Coti is the next challenge. I have a good feeling I'm actually doing it right. The edge I produced is a lot like one I did a while ago—I think I just need more keen. I can't seem to max out the coti. That's where the Norton 4/8 idea came in. But, tomorrow's another day gents.

I practice honing on some worn out old straights every night usually 1-5 hours, if not that, I work on stropping for at least an hour, practice has improved my honing leaps and bounds but, stropping is SO key to getting the edge where you Need it to be. Best of practice to you.:)

Glad to hear you are sorting things out. As for your Coti and the like, dare I suggest skimming through this ol' thread:

The 1K shave

Regards

Christian

Dude, post some pictures of the razor.

The king 1k is just fine, as is the Norton 4/8k, but neither will hone a worthless razor.

I use a DMT 1200 to set bevels. I've stopped using the DMT 8000, now I go to the Naniwa SS 8000, then 12000. I'd like to add something in-between so I could spend less time removing the DMT's scratches with the 8000. Anyway, the DMT cuts fast. I would only use light pressure. I also always use water on the DMT. You should be able to get the blade very sharp off the 1200, so that you're honing, not sharpening, on your coti. A loupe is a great tool to see what you're doing. As others have said, taping the spine is wise. I wouldn't say the DMT is the ideal stone for razors, but for me, my money has been better spent on the finishing stones and the DMT will work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thunderbird47

I use a DMT 1200 to set bevels. I've stopped using the DMT 8000, now I go to the Naniwa SS 8000, then 12000. I'd like to add something in-between so I could spend less time removing the DMT's scratches with the 8000. Anyway, the DMT cuts fast. I would only use light pressure. I also always use water on the DMT. You should be able to get the blade very sharp off the 1200, so that you're honing, not sharpening, on your coti. A loupe is a great tool to see what you're doing. As others have said, taping the spine is wise. I wouldn't say the DMT is the ideal stone for razors, but for me, my money has been better spent on the finishing stones and the DMT will work.

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Well, he already has possession of a King 1K hone, that's why I suggested using that instead. I'm a big proponent of working with what you've got, and any ~1K hone is better than no 1K. It isn't that a diamond hone won't/can't work. But if you already have an acceptable 1K bevel setter that won't leave deep scratches like a diamond hone, there's no reason not to use that instead. And it isn't like the 1200 would just collect dust. I'm sure it's great for resto work, kitchen knives, and working up slurry. I'm sure he'll get bitten by the coticule bug again, naturals can be quite addicting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thunderbird47

I use a DMT 1200 to set bevels. I've stopped using the DMT 8000, now I go to the Naniwa SS 8000, then 12000. I'd like to add something in-between so I could spend less time removing the DMT's scratches with the 8000. Anyway, the DMT cuts fast. I would only use light pressure. I also always use water on the DMT. You should be able to get the blade very sharp off the 1200, so that you're honing, not sharpening, on your coti. A loupe is a great tool to see what you're doing. As others have said, taping the spine is wise. I wouldn't say the DMT is the ideal stone for razors, but for me, my money has been better spent on the finishing stones and the DMT will work.

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DMT 1200 to Naniwa 8k? That's gotta suck. If you're looking for something in between I'd go Naniwa 3k or 5k. 3k would be better coming from the DMT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

Glad to hear you are sorting things out. As for your Coti and the like, dare I suggest skimming through this ol' thread:

The 1K shave

Regards

Christian

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This is really helpful. Good Read and I think I'll only get better having done this experiment. Thanks!

This guy has some interesting videos on maxing out a Coticule edge
https://youtu.be/FXHsETAasqc

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Originally Posted by rodb

This guy has some interesting videos on maxing out a Coticule edge
https://youtu.be/FXHsETAasqc

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I saw this a while back. Was definitely a great resource. My edges have improved, but it's definitely the bevel. I just know it. I'm caught up in studies at the moment, but will post my "corrected bevel + maxed out coti" results very soon.

Again, thanks so much.

J743
In regards to how much pressure is medium, heavy, or light you could use a scale to get you in the general area.
I used a digital kitchen scale to try this and found that 100 grams is about right for what I might call a medium pressure.
Lay the razor's blade on the scale like you would a hone and hold it is lightly as you can and still maintain contact with the spine and edge.
I got 20 grams with no pressure.
The test razor, a 100 year old well worn medium sized Fredrick Reynolds with warped horn scales weighs 41 grams total.
When I put as much pressure as approximately what I normally use and make a honing stroke the scale reads about 120 grams.
Trust that the numbers are nowhere stable in this test so I have to pick a general average number.

The pressure I am comfortable with decreases as I go to the finer grit hones.

The last few honing strokes that I do on the finishing hone, (Naniwa 12000) are done with a new application of tape and with as little pressure as I can manage and still make contact with both the spine and the edge to the hone.

When doing blade repair/ reshaping/removing large chips etc. I use considerably more pressure especially initially and then lessen the pressure as I get closer to the new bevel I am satisfied with.
The wedges will take more pressure than full hollows because of the blade's flexing with pressure issue.

This is the best I can do to put an actual number on how much pressure I normally use.
I welcome anyone to try this if you have access to a scale and I would like to hear what numbers others might get.
Maybe I am ham fisted, or maybe I have an unusually light touch?

I still would like to know what razor it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeJay

DMT 1200 to Naniwa 8k? That's gotta suck. If you're looking for something in between I'd go Naniwa 3k or 5k. 3k would be better coming from the DMT.

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It doesn't suck, only because I enjoy my time spent honing an edge, but you're right that it's not ideal. Anyway I should have a 4k Naniwa in a few days. If it speeds up my process too much, I'll just have to buy more razors. Can't win really. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chevhead

I still would like to know what razor it is.

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If he told you… he’d have to kill you.

Not worth it…