Should I try to tackle this (very difficult, IMHO) challenge?

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yup, good progress, once you get the bevel fully set, it will not take much effort or time to re-set the angle.

Ink the bevels and spend some time on the toe and heel, adding a finger of pressure and get them to meet. It is not uncommon for the heel and toe to need more attention especially with that much wear and tape.

Also, as said, keep the tape tight and change the top layer as it wears. You will see bits of tape in the swarf and feel it on the stone. If you feel a bump or sticking on the stone, stop and check your tape, probably burned through the top layer.

Good photos and progress.

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I've been putting pretty good pressure on the heel and toe. Still having a hard time consistently reaching it. I can feel more resistance on the stone, at the end of the rolling X stroke, at the toe. To get it to reach the toe, I've had to raise the heel a tiny bit at the end of the stroke - hope that is OK.

I've been replacing the top two layers (often they both come off). There have been times when I see the wear on the tape, so I need to do it more frequently. Good point to focus on. Maybe the sticking is what I'm feeling?

Thanks! I'll try not to be too anal on the angle (AA). :) That's the engineer in me.

So I understand, is this correct...

If too narrow an angle, the edge may not hold, and it will take longer to hone, whereas if to wide of an angle, the edge may not cut?

I'll work on it more tonight and see what happens. Pictures will follow (as usual).

Appreciate all the suggestions and advice!

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Originally Posted by pcm

Thanks! I'll try not to be too anal on the angle (AA). :) That's the engineer in me.

So I understand, is this correct...

If too narrow an angle, the edge may not hold, and it will take longer to hone, whereas if to wide of an angle, the edge may not cut?

I'll work on it more tonight and see what happens. Pictures will follow (as usual).

Appreciate all the suggestions and advice!

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Yes that is the basic premise,,, back when we actually did the experiments and measurement here on SRP we measured razors that were shaving for us and found angles from 12-25 the most by a huge margin fell within the 15-17 area
16° is the grinding target, and seems to be the average of what is out there, but the rules are pretty loose..

Your razor is outside the norm from wear, so the numbers are "off" :rofl2:

Just for context... here are the only pictures I have of the razor, when I received it in Jan 2015. It has since then been stropped, shelved, and then sent to Lynn for an attempt at sharpening:

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Stay on the 1k stone, you are pretty close, this is where a 4 and 600 grit stone pays dividends.

The 325 Diamond plate it will speed up metal removal but also eat the tape so it a wash as a time saver at this point, because you will spend possibly more time replacing tape, removing deep stria and possibly some of the edge to get to good steel.

Getting the bevels to meet completely now, will save you tons of frustration down the road.

Yes, that is the gymnastic that Glenn talks about, whatever it takes to get the spine and edge on the stone, all the way to the edge. Just go slow, you don’t need a lot of pressure or lifting.

Ink is your friend here

OK, did a ~100 strokes with moderate pressure, and then ~100 with pressure on the toe and heel. Then, I jointed on my thumbnail 3x, and did about 40 strokes with light pressure. It is cutting hairs - I just have to make sure I don't have the spine on my skin - raised some it is cutting. Feels sharper to the TPT too. Here are a bunch of shots. First of the edge:

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Then low magnification:
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And then a few at high magnification (focusing on heel and toe):

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The scale is in the background on some of the shots. 0.5mm per mark.

BTW, inking, I get everywhere, except the very end of the toe and heel (you can see some of the red in the shots, left over).

The attachments are not opening, get an invalid attachment message.

To ink just the edge, run the sharpie on the edge and let it bite into the sharpie just a bit. You will ink the edge and a 32nd or so, on both sides of the bevel.

TNT (Thumb Nail Test) is more like corking, than jointing. It will slightly straighten and edge and “wipe” raggedness from an edge. The thumbnail is more aggressive on the edge than a cork.

Stropping on Linen or Canvas strop does much the same thing.

Jointing will remove the same ragged edge and flatten the edge by removing a micro amount of the edge, so the edge is straight, as opposed to a ragged edge of a TNT or corked edge.

The difference is minor but if you are working an edge, honing, the goal of jointing is to straighten the edge, then hone the bevels to meet the straight edge.

Once the bevels are flat and at the proper angle, it only takes a few laps to get them to meet again. Of course the grit of the stone and amount of pressure use will determine results.

Here are the shots again. Edge:

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Low magnification:

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High magnification, focusing on heel/toe:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The attachments are not opening, get an invalid attachment message.

To ink just the edge, run the sharpie on the edge and let it bite into the sharpie just a bit. You will ink the edge and a 32nd or so, on both sides of the bevel.

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Will try inking just the edge tonight and see what it shows. I've been inking each side of the bevel.

One of the things that I am not getting a feel for from the closeup pics

Is the entire bevel beginning to even up, are you getting a nice gentle smile along the whole edge

Looks much better, but still needs some more work on the toe and especially the heel.

The Stria at the toe also needs straightening out, (perpendicular to the edge). You can do straight strokes with the curved edge perpendicular with the edge of the stone, so that the razor is at about 45 degrees, (Heel back) to the edge of the stone, to hone the tip of the toe and the curve of the toe.

Start at the tip and do over lapping strokes covering about a ½ inch of the edge at a time until you get to the flatter part of the edge. Keep reducing the angle, moving the heel forward, until the edge middle is perpendicular to the edge.

Once you are honing all the way to the edge, at the toe, you will have a slightly faceted edge. Then do X strokes, working just the toe, to blend and smooth the curved edge. Much like you would freehand hone the tip of a large knife.

This is just a bevel setting technique for problem toes and heels, not a regular honing technique.

Do the same with the heel, only reversed, with the heel forward about 45 degrees. You will also need to adjust the razor/stone angle, lifting slightly, the part of the razor that is opposite the part you are working on, heel or toe, to make full contact. The spine and the edge tip will still be on the stone but the whole spine and edge will not be on the stone. (The Gymnastics)

Here again ink will tell you, if you are making good contact.

I think you are getting real close, just need a little more...

Thanks Euclid440! I wish I would have read this before I honed tonight. Lots to think about for sure. I'll give this a try over the weekend. I agree that I need to lift the other end a bit. Without doing that, I cannot get to the toe for sure. You can see for this set of pictures that there is still some ink at heel and toe, and on the edge you can see some shiny spots. It is starting to cut hairs though, so getting close. The stria on the toe is because I sort of do an upside down J stroke on that rolling - keeping the heel on the stone 2/3 of the way down and then starting to move off the heel towards the toe.

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OK, I did some "special" strokes on the 1K (still 5 layers of tape). This time, trying to keep the curve of the edge perpendicular to the edge of the stone, working on the toe only, and raising the heel up off the stone. I would start with the blade perpendicular, and while moving the toe straight forward, started letting the heel fall behind. I did the same thing on the heel, trying to follow the curve, raising the toe as needed to keep contact. The blade was perpendicular to the side of the stone, and then moved so that at the end of the stroke the heel was 45 degrees or so forward. I did some light "wiper" like strokes to try to smooth out the curve and finished with some rolling X strokes, where I actually lifted the toe and then heel on the stroke.

Here are edge and bevel shots on each side.

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The bevel width is about 1.25mm at the heel and 1.5mm at the toe.

I'd like to hear what you guys think about the current state. I'm really pleased with what I see on the edge meeting at the toe and heel, and the bevel looks really good.

Looks like it is coming together for you, and looks like you are learning to "Blend" the entire bevel together :tu

Yes, looking much better.

Still just a bit at the heel and toe. I use both the heel and toe when shaving so I always spend a little extra time to ensure they are both well honed.

You have sure made some progress from where you started a few weeks ago.

Good work.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yes, looking much better.

Still just a bit at the heel and toe. I use both the heel and toe when shaving so I always spend a little extra time to ensure they are both well honed.

You have sure made some progress from where you started a few weeks ago.

Good work.

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Yes, that was what I was thinking. The stria at the toe on the right side, and the very heel seems like it is not quite meeting.

Everyone has been so helpful! I knew there would be a lot to learn about honing, but now feel like I'm only touching the tip of the iceberg, with the different variations that can be seen with razors - and I only have 5 of them - a small sample size.

PCM, Gotta say - you inspired me :]
I have a near-wedge Joseph-Allen that gave me so much trouble when I started honing it, that it simply frustrated me and I haven't touched me restore-box since.... But it's nothing compared to what that beast was when you started with it!
Way to go for determination! You got me mentally ready to get back on that 1k....

Hi
Glad to see the close pics of edges and your work.

I will be needing advise on a wedge I just bought.
I will know more when I get it in the mail.

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Originally Posted by Haim

PCM, Gotta say - you inspired me :]
I have a near-wedge Joseph-Allen that gave me so much trouble when I started honing it, that it simply frustrated me and I haven't touched me restore-box since.... But it's nothing compared to what that beast was when you started with it!
Way to go for determination! You got me mentally ready to get back on that 1k....

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Thanks! Well, the folks here have been really helpful with collective remote mentoring :)

I could never do this on my own.

Did some more on the 1K, working only on the stria on the toe, and getting the bevel to meet on the heel. Here's what I have now:

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It looks a lot better, but the steel looks a little funky on the tip and the heel just past where it meets the bevel.

On the heel I would have reshaped it and brought the radius further forward and more of a radius, this not only improves the shape of the heel, which will allow you to shave with the curve of the heel, but also remove some of the ragged steel.

The toe may also suffer from the same steel problem but now that you have an edge on it, see if it holds as you polish it. If it starts to chip, joint the toe and re set it. Same for the heel, if it breaks down re-shape it and re-set.

Other than that, it looks good, move on up but you will have to give the toe and heel extra attention on the 4 & 8K.

Here’s a couple photos before and after of a reshaped heel, Glen posted recently. As I said earlier I use toes and heel to shave all the time, so I always give them extra attention. Notice the sweeping arc of the re-shaped heel and how the intersection of the curve and the edge moved forward of the original.

If the heel needs re-shaping, I do it as part of honing, as it only takes a few strokes with a Diamond file or plate. Bevel setting will get it sharp.

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Will try the 2k Naniwa SS a bit tonight.

With 5 layers, 2K SS, I did heel forward rolling X strokes, some heel forward X strokes, and did some exaggerated rolling X strokes, lifting the blade at the opposite end of each stroke to get to the toe/heel.

The bevel seems met still, but there is deeper stria, especially at the toe and along the on the right side (stroke towards me). Need to keep at it I think. I need to focus on toe/heel again, and I think I need more time to get rid of more of the 1K stria. THursday (my next session window), I'll work on it more.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Let me see if I can make it clear...

A bevel angle of 15° - 17° is dead nuts normal in fact perfect

Now look at the first pic of the razor in post #1, do you see an issue ???

So obviously this razor is well outside of the norm, the entire geometry has been honed beyond the norm, so the numbers are going to be "Off" unless the razor is reground back into correct geometry..
We have moved beyond the re-grind now, and we are well out onto the experimental limb of the honing tree..

ie: The numbers seem "Off" but he is making progress toward an edge now ..

Hence my statement when I got into this discussion post #6, "I would measure the Bevel angle right now to get an idea of where it is even at, and if there is enough spine left to even do a re-grind.."
It was not even about the bevel angle as it pertained to honing it was in reference to a re-grind possibility...

At post #24 after he was told the bevel angle was high, again I attempted to explain that the bevel angle seemed "off", but he was making progress so to stay at 5 layers and keep honing.
The bevel angle seems "off" because at 17.8° he should need NO tape, or maybe 1 layer to protect the spine, but this razor is not within the norm

In post #30 again I tried to explain that although the bevel angle seems "off", because a 17.8° angle is normal and good, keep the 5 layers because the edge is making progress now..

So again I think we can all agree that the bevel angle seems "off" but he is making progress so stick with it get an edge first, and adjust later if needed..


I hope that helps

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Yes thanks. When you said the numbers were off, I thought you were referring to the measurements and calculations of the blade profile.

I had some time tonight to hone more on the 2k. My wife was on the computer, so I'll have to post Picts tomorrow. Visually, I could see less of the stria from the 1k. Heck I might have gotten almost all of it. We'll see.

One concern though,is I'm seeing a second bevel. It's about half of the new bevel that I had made with the 1k. I'm not sure what I did wrong. I checked and I did have 5 layers. I'm not sure if maybe I accidentally had 4 layers last time on the 2k, the last time on the 1k, or if there is a problem with my tape application.

It has been hard for me to align 5 layers evenly on both sides of the spine, one is often longer than the other. Though I would think that would show as an uneven bevel on each side. The width of the new bevel seems similar on each side, however on the right heel it is a bit wider.

Also this newer bevel is more even, with a thicker bevel for the last cm or less at the heel. The older bevel was tapered and increased at the toe, where it was much larger.

I'll try to take shots with the ruler laid on the bevel too.

One good thing, the TPT seems awfully sharp to my uncalibrated thumbs!

Yea, when you get that much tape on there, weird things can happen. Just make sure it is on as tight as you can make it.

Ink it and try 4 layers and see what happens, if you need to, add another layer.

Also try to use as little “English” as possible, to make the strokes as repeatable as possible, but make sure you are reaching the edge.

Take your time, it is looking very good, from where you started. This is not your average honing session. The bevels look good, but the edge is very straight… Good work.

It will be difficult to keep electrical tape at the same tautness, especially compounded over 5 layers several occasions. This falls in the territory of tolerancing and stack up can get bad fast. It might be best to only remove the top layer until all honing is finished.

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Originally Posted by dinnermint

It will be difficult to keep electrical tape at the same tautness, especially compounded over 5 layers several occasions. This falls in the territory of tolerancing and stack up can get bad fast. It might be best to only remove the top layer until all honing is finished.

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I've been trying to remove only the top layer, but occasionally 2 layers come off. Unfortunately, since it is sometimes 2-3 days at a time, I've had times when I wasn't sure, so I pulled all 5 layers. recently, what I was doing was placing layers back on, when finishing, so that when I restarted, I had 5 layers for sure (versus 4 or 3 and having to add one, before starting). This latest hone, I pulled everything off to ensure I had 5 layers (I did), but I thnk I may have missed a layer before (maybe at the last 1k hone, or first 2k hone session).

Here are shots of the overall razor. You can see the original bevel a tiny bit, then the previous bevel, which is larger at the toe than heel, and the latest hone, which is larger at the heel than toe (but probably more consistent along the length):

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I'm not sure if I should continue with 2K or drop back to 1K and try to get a single consistent bevel, or to just continue with the 2K. Took a step back on it I think...

Here is the (triple) bevel I have right now. :( The original, which was very uneven and large and only have it showing in some places - nothing I'm concerned with.

The bevel from this honing progression coming from the 1K with more evenness (larger at the toe). May have been some 2K on that bevel or not.

With the latest honing on 2K, a third bevel (which I know is with 5 layers of tape):

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Like I mentioned, I'm not sure if it was my last session on the 1K or first on the 2K, where I may have accidentally had only 4 layers.

The big question is what to do now...

The hash marks are 0.5mm each.

Here is a look at the edge and the bevel on each side, without the ruler overlaid...

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If I understand correctly you are concerned about the bevel not being even. On a blade like that it is unlikely that the bevel will ever be even, an even bevel is the luxury of sound geometry and grind.

It does appear in a couple of pictures that you have a double bevel. Some guys make those on purpose. I think as long as the bevel you are currently working on goes all the way to the apex you are going to be just fine.
Yes counting layers when changing the tape is a pain. I remember I think Glen saying not to leave tape on your razor for long periods of time. So when I am working on long term honing projects I leave mine tapeless at the end of the session.
Your challenging project is getting very close, as the heavy grinding is almost done.

Yea, don’t worry about it. This baby is not going to be a looker, and with all that tape you will never have an even bevel.

If you stay on the 2k, the bevel will get a bit wider, but it will be stronger and probably closer to what the bevel angle should be, if it had the original spine thickness.

The 2k is pretty aggressive, just does not leave the deep stria of a 1k, so just keep working the 2k. I have been playing with a Naniwa 2k green brick, with good results. The 1k is good for hogging off steel, but a 2k is more of a finesse stone that can sneak up on an edge and still remove material but save not leave deep stria, with a straighter edge. And it’s not that much slower, just a few laps more.

Actually, I am impressed your bevels are as consistent as they are, with all that tape on it. Tape gets wobbly, especially if you are leaving it on for days. BTW WD40 gets the glue off easily with a paper towel.

I never leave tape on a razor, if water get under the first layer, it will rust.

Thanks for the suggestions and comments. I was really surprised that the bevel was different than the earlier bevel.

Tomorrow, I'll work on it some more and see how the stria looks. I still need to do lighter, and lighter strokes with the 2k, and need to work the heel and toe more.

Euclid440, good point about moisture, especially since I work on the blade every few days.

More time on the 2K with 5 layers. I got the tape applied well today. Did probably 200 strokes overall, from moderate pressure to blade only pressure - still trying this exaggerated rolling X stroke. The bevel seems close. I don't see any shiny spots, like with other blades, but there is a bit of a dark line. Not sure if the bevel isn't quite there, it is the lighting, or the angle of the bevel being different than other blades.

The stria on the heel seems OK, but on the toe, especially the right side, has deeper stria, is several directions. It's tough (for me) to try to freehand hone that curved toe. Overall the stria seems pretty good to me. Inking the edge shows that indeed the very end of the toe and heel are not always hit (they are if I do 3-5 passes).

Here are the shots from today...

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I was thinking of trying to focus on the toe tomorrow some more. Any other suggestions? I was also thinking of trying a test shave in the morning, just to get a feel for how the edge is.

Missed one of the edge at the heel...
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Time for the 2K test shave?

No test shave yet. You now need to move up to higher grit hone, with your 5 layers of tape.
Climbing time. I would go to 5k hone now. If you have a 4K or 6K it will work.
It is looking good.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

Time for the 2K test shave?

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Just for grins, I tried a test shave this morning...

Pulling some, but NOT cutting hairs hardly at all. I'm wondering if that bevel is not quite meeting or if there is some issue with the angle on the edge (or I wasn't using a steep enough angle when shaving)?

Think I should stay on the 2K more and see if that edge meets better?