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been thinking about getting a coti but after some reading on the superior shave web site i read a statement that made me wonder. i have a tough beard and have been happy with the edge off my 8k naniwa ss. they seemed to say that a coti edge might not be good for a tough beard. what is your experience?
I've yet to have a shave that didn't tug and pull, but it does leave a nice face feel. My recommendation is to contact jnats and try out an affordable jnat. The edges are sharp and smooth.
My beard has a lot of gray. Gray/white whiskers are tough. For 45 years I've used a coticule for my finishing edge BUT I know my stone and my shaves are like velvet.
I have a few Sheffield blades that I've finished on a Coticule, and love those edges. I find those Coti edges to be very soft and easy on my face. Out of all my stones, I like those edges the best. I finish on 3 different stones, Thuri, Zulu grey, and Coti.
Well if you haven't felt a coticule edge I suggest sending your razor to a well known coticule honer. You probably won't be disappointed when done right. When done correctly there is no tug and pull. Sharp and smooth. Caveat being it has to be done right by someone who knows what they're doing with their stone.
You won't be disappointed.
Yes the advise I was given, take a known razor that your very comfortable with and send it to a very good hone guy and ask him to put a Coticule edge on it fir you. That way you will have a good reference point. I do the same thing for all the different edges. I use the same razor that I use a bunch, the try a different stone, so far, Zulu, Jnat, Shapton, and Naniwa, and I thuri. So far the best I've gotten is for sharp and very smooth has been the Shapton. Followed by the Jnats and Zulu, also, I,m finding it real hard to beat a synthetic edge off the naniwa, stropped on a paper strop with CBN
You just need to try them all in a controlled experiment, cause most f us are going to tell you our favorite stones . Not what you may find is your favorite, cause so far the big name hones haven't showed me any better edge than the Shapton edge that Glen's been putting on one of my razors since I got it. YMMV. GOOD LUCK. Tc
I had a wade and butcher the celebrated for barbers use honed for me by glen. I've owned several coticules and experience the same tug and pull with every razor ive put to every coti I've owned. Same razors touched up on a jnat or thuri yield excellent results. I didn't want to drag Glens name or reputation into this, but to say that a coti can provide every person with a tug free shave just is not true. Now the shaves were smooth and close and comfortable, just needed extra care to take short strokes with extra focus on skin stretching.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Sunshine , on a cold winter morning. :beer2:
I am thinking about starting a thread about Hirlauism's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
:rofl2: don't do that, they'll toss me into the box with no smokes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJkQuote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
I can't speak for anyone but me, and IME I've gotten very fine shaves with coticule edges. I will say that not all coticules are created equal, so that needs to be taken into consideration. I also cannot speak for anyone's whiskers but mine. I've never shaved anyone but me. My beard is tough enough around the knob of the chin, sides of the jaw line, and down the neck, but I don't know that it is as tough as yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintin
Dang Jimmy that's an old one,,,,:)
Well, I've never shaved with a razor of mine that was honed with a coticule, so I would not know if it hit me in the face. I touched up a Tanifuji with a translucent ark yesterday that would not shave very well and I had a smooth and comfortable shave. I know that a lot of people do not like arks as they are notoriously slow, and they are correct! Non the less, very nice!
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm0uSVvjsOA
Don't think, Feeeel!
I have to wait until april to be able to test my coticule (it's a birthday present).
If it's anything like the edge I got off a Lorraine/salm type the other day then it's going to be good!
I've had tuggy shaves from a certain coticule, smooth but not sharp enough for me; but I've also had tugless shaves from another coticule, also smooth and sharp enough; both left me skin feeling smooth, skin friendly.
Because it doesn't feel as sharp as a thuringen edge, I find myself paying more attention to shaving technique and beard prep, but that's just me. (Which is not a bad thing)
It all depends, but there's a lot of experimenting with these stones, there's a lot of variety; I just finished a razor on a coticule with lather wheres with water my edges were OK, but not good enough for my liking, so I'll see how that goes.
Different veins get different results, I think, many say the results are negligible and that most coti's leave somewhat of the same sort of edge; I do seem to prefer some veins over the other.
Trial and error it has mostly been, and I most likely haven't fully conquered the art of honing on a Coticule.
But when you get it right, it's a wonderful thing, I haven't always completely appreciated, but I'm starting to now.
I also have read and have experienced that when I'm finishing on a Coticule it needs a good stropping session, this should give excellent results.
Maybe a little off topic, but my best shave I ever had was a razor finished on a BBW with just water, but one of my least pleasant shaves were also coming off a BBW, so hmm yeah.
Dull. But in a nice way. Mushy, buttery, some call it smooth?? I find them the kindest to my skin but yet to find a coti that you do not feel some resistance especially ATG. You love em or hate em.Personally I think there is to much debate about keenness. Granted the high grit synthetics are bullet proof and cotis are not easy stones to use. At the end of the day a razor only needs to be keen enough to cut hair. This may not be the most pleasant shaving experience, but I have had some of my closest shaves from these edges with enough passes. Very, very forgiving edge to the skin and you can really get stuck in with a bit of pressure.
I shaved yesterday with a razor honed on a Gokumyo 20000 and to be honest the shave was excellent (cruised through whiskers just razor weight) but felt that if my touch was anything but light as a feather I would have grafted some face skin. And to be honest the result was not very much better if at all. Just my 2 cents
Joe
I'm told the more recent Coticules are inferior to the older ones and even those came in grades so it depends whether you have an OK one or a good one or a very good one or an excellent one.
The one I have is probably about 15 years old and when I got it that Coticule was my best stone and I used it as a finisher and I got great edges from it. Of course when I got my Escher the edges were better but the Coticule was darn good for shaving.
I find my zulu yields a keener smoother edge than my La Veinette (slightly). Where the coticule really comes into its own is when backing off a really keen or even harsh edge honed by other means. Between 5 to 20 laps usually does the trick. Nothing dials in smoothness without losing much keenness like a coticule IMHO.
Given that they are all in excess of 70 million years old - or 700 hundred million depending on which book you read, the fact that you can discern a difference in 15 years is incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Regardless of how old the stones are, the question is whether the quality of the material in the veins of coticule declines as the mine is depleted. The good stuff being long since harvested.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
In the 1970s I used to read that sort of thing in articles in knife & gun magazines referring to Arkansas stones, saying they were 'mined out.' Matter of fact there was a new run of Lilly White Washita stones by Norton Abrasives some 7 or 8 years ago. Guys on forums who had used the vintage Lilly Whites claimed they weren't as good.
OTOH, I suppose it could be argued that the quality might improve as you got to the end of the usefulness of the mine. :thinking:
When I read this the thing that sticks out the most is "usefulness". And a close second is that the vintage ones were better.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Mines or quarries are run as a business. I have read many times that they know that there is a higher quality material deeper etc. but it is to costly to get and you make more money with the easier to obtain lesser quality ore etc.
We remember the best things of the past and tend to ignore the problems. It is human nature.......
Not to mention the Romans that 'took' a lot of good Coticule stones, muahaha
Anyways, I'm honing a couple of razors (2) on different coticules atm, and I will hone those two razors solely on 4 to 5 different coticules to see what their differences are.
3 of those Cotis are cotis that were sold a while ago, so I'll call those vintage cotis (no idea of the veins, probably veinettes and a la grise). 2 others are modern bought la veinettes. These rocks all date back to the same period millions of years ago so they're really all vintage. I wonder what difference it will make.
All of these coti's are natural combos, except for one of the modern ones.
Since I've been mainly only using Thuringen stones in the past; I find for daily shaving I might benefit from something a little less sharp and smoother
A little off topic; I prefer to hone on narrower hones and not too long either, I'm not saying it's cheap, but when I compare the prices to the big cotis that are being sold, I'm glad I have this preference.
Your question of 'what does a coti edge feel like' is really hard to answer. I think the parameters of coti edges are similar to those of straight razors, namely, the possibilities range from sublime to god awful. But if you'd like to get one, and are a patient yet practical man, you're in for a lot of fun.
Go read up on - http://www.coticule.be
As to 'old or new' I can't say just yet. I have 14 vintage and one new, and I've never really got an edge I was happy with off the new one, which is a regret of mine cause it's a really nice size and good looking stone.
And the two best ever razor edges I experienced were off a fellow member's vintage coti.
I have a really course or thick beard. It took me quite a while to be able to get the keenness from a coti edge to shave it easily. I recently introduced a friend to straight shaving. I was staying at his house for a couple of days and he asked me to shave him so he could see what it was like, so I did and was so surprised at how different his beard was to mine. It was basically like a kid's, it just fell off as I shaved. And he didn't have much regrowth until a week later. I was kind of envious at how easily his was to shave, and a real eye opener too at why some people think different edges, etc are ok.
Well, I have honed a on 3 different coticules now, they all provided great smooth shaves.
One seemed a little smoother than the other, but they all felt skin friendly and very much alike, although I was able to discern a difference in smoothness, a small difference, but noticeable.
(I can definitely see a certain preference for certain veins in that regard)
All shaves were great, some felt 'sharper' others felt 'smoother', all were friendly on the skin.
Also, all were sharp enough to shave well without any sort of tugging whatsoever. Very pleasant shaves.
It didn't feel as sharp as a thuringer edge, but it was more skin friendly.
It's been a long time since I saw the "Branded" intro, but when I watched it just now my immediate thought after he picked up the broken saber was...
"Hey, I can re-grind that point and make a perfectly good tanto!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I'll preface my statements by saying that I haven't tried one of the more recent coticules from the "new" mine, and I won't because of similar statements that I've been told ... and by people who know. As far as being only fifteen years or so different in age, I cannot answer that, but I do know that many different layers, with many different attributes came out of the Old Preu mine. I've got two La Veinnettes from the old mine, about ten years ago, that will rival the edge of any other stone, of any ilk, that I've got here. But these are all natural stones. I've got Old Rock, Deep Rock, Salm, Oozuko, Shoubudani, Nakayama, Escher, SRD... These two LV's will hold their own with any of them.
I've yet to hear of anything great from the new location .. That does not mean there won't be, but I'm standing pat!
Edit... I'm itching to try a Gokumyo 20K edge though...
My G20K stone should arrive any day now. I would be glad to hone a razor for you, if you wish to send me one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Druid
Joe
Old new does not really matter. Person honing and layer of rock makes a difference, but you can get an awesome shave with any coticule with the right time and patience. Each layer and stone is just different and time spent on the rock makes a lot of difference. Even mixing and matching the slurry stone can make a difference. Some are slow some are fast. My guess is the problems arise with the slower stones more often. Also I think some guys have problems with the faster stones because of slurry dulling. It takes time and patience I find a coticule to not be a quick method unless just touching up. That being said I started with only coticule. I started with vintage natural combo then another then a new stone from the mine Les Lat which is really nice then a La Verte from the mine which is also really nice, but much slower yet great for finishing even on a light slurry. I Even have some glued vintage which are very fast and I tend to set bevels on. Fast is a relative term here only in comparison to other coticules. Taking an old wedge off ebay and fixing it removing chips setting bevel and finishing can take a day or more.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. A coticule edge done right may feel different to different people based on skin type and hair type. For me and alot of others it feels like a warm butter knife wiping the hair off your face with little to no irritation.
I have sensitive skin and my hair is not the thickest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
Then it might be due to your honing technique with your coti's. Using my coti's and bbw's (none are vintage BTW) I am able to put on an edge every but as sharp and tug free as those from any synthetic or JNAT.
that was my initial thought as well. Then i tried several more stones, and a razor honed by glen. The results never change. Id like to do a trade off with someone who has a truly shave ready razor on a coti, that they have tested. Ill trade one that i have honed. it will be the final test, but i fear i already know the result. my edge will shave their face fine, theirs will not shave mine. my facial hair resists even the sharpest edges. I have looked long and hard to find stones that provide enough sharpness, and razors as well. I have to use harder steels and top tier jnats to achieve a smooth, tug free shave. this doesnt mean i cant shave off a coti, or lower grit finisher, or a harder steel razor, it just requires perfect technique and attention to detail. when you watch shaving videos online of guys who go from below their adams apple up to their chin with no resistance and smooth sailing, it has never been the case with me. the idea of having to delicate intricacies for a stone, that then change based on what razor is being honed just does not appeal to me, especially when the shaves are sub par. I take my jnat and rub a razor on it and its shave ready with no magic dances and singing sweet love songs to the stone HAHA.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaveWares
If you're coticule isn't leaving a sharp enough edge, spend some time on a coticule with soapy water. Even if the coticule isn't a good cutter for middle progressions (I'd highly advise that you try the BBW for the middle stages to get your edge even sharper then you will on the coticule) finish on soapy water. You'll get your edge as sharp as you would on any synthetic or JNAT. In fact I've gotten my razors too sharp on 3 different BBW's and had to tone them down a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanLudlow
+1 on the soapy water, but most of all +1 on spending time with one just stone. All techniques transfer but most stones require different amounts of this or that, so the foundations will keep shifting if you're changing stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaveWares
Some other ways to finish are applying a little lather. From my experience this is a pre-finishing stage cause I think it increases suction so makes the un-slurried surface more aggressive.
Graphite: get a pencil and cover the surface in graphite. Hone dry.
Talcum powder: Rub talcum into the surface and hone dry.
Nurugel: Available everywhere in the land of smiles, this is a water based gel. It's like a water/oil combo.
Rub dry coti slurry stone over stone, hone on slurry powder. The times I've done this I've found it quite aggressive.
Dry lap with coti slurry stone. Wash thoroughly then hone wet. I think this is one of the reasons people might find a difference between new and vintage stones. It's just a guess, and I don't have any microscopes or anything to check the surface, but dry lapping seems to leave a finer surface than wet lapping. I might be wrong. And honing a few razors/burnishing lightly with an old razor seems to me to leave the surface slicker - so the final edge seems smoother and sharper.
I also find tiny circles much better in the finishing stage. I used to do a combination of half strokes then full strokes but not any more.
Not sure about Dr. Matt's finishing under running water, but I frequently add water in the last couple rounds of circles.
Have used all this hydroplaning trickery with good results. Nothing wrong with that, in fact in puts the skill element back into the honing session. I think a lot of it depends on the coti you are using. Also by definition you are using a mixed grit hone, thats what these natural hones are. Also no one will convince me that they don't vary as you lap them either. Also the sedimentary substrate and how far the garnets protrude determines the technique employed. I always used magnification and on certain cotis I stop using circles toward the finishing stages. I have got keener edges from my slightly glazed lv compared to when I lap it.
I value your opinion, however I just have a different opinion. The best coticule, in my opinion, would come no where near the comfort and sharpness of even a mid range jnat. Again that's me and my opinion, based on the shaves I've had off many coticule and many jnats. In reality it's like debating over what's better, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. It's about trying all the options available and determining what works best for you, which it looks like we have both accomplished. I challenge anyone willing to try and shave my face with a coticule edge and prove me wrong, heck now I'm thinking about playing with mine again! I've spent many hours, tried all the tricks mentioned, and still end up on a jnat...Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaveWares
I have had edges from a coticule that would rival L5 jnat or top end pasted edge. To qualify this though the frequency of these occurrences have been like the appearance of Haileys comet. I have always been unable to recapitulate these results. Not easy stones to use. Dr Matt makes the most sense to me when it comes to using them.
i was under the impression that coticules were metamorphic rocks? I dont think a metamorphic rock would contain any sedimentary substrates. If im wrong please elaborate because i find this very interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard