Edge Picture at 100X after Chosera 1K Stone

Hello,

I am fairly new to straight razors I am looking for some help from anyone experienced at honing with the aid of a microscope. I am wondering if anyone can comment on the attached photo. I tried to set the bevel on my Ralf Aust razor using Lynn's method with 40 circles each side of the blade (with pressure) and then 25 X strokes on each side with pressure.

What I see in the compound microscope is a fairly "toothy" edge. This photo was taken with my iPhone through the compound microscope just after the chosera 1K stone. I don't know how much detail the photo will show, but I'll give it a try. I am not experience enough with the TPT to be able to interpret the result, but the razor did shave arm hair, although reluctantly.

When I progressed to the 5K, 8K, 12K, and 20K stones, the edge improved but still remained somewhat "toothy" at the edge. My shave with the razor was not very good. It was not necessarily harsh, but the razor was just not sharp enough.

When I compare my final edge to my other razors that were professionally honed, I see very smooth edges at 100X on the pro honed razors.

Is this "toothy" edge what I should be seeing at the chosera 1K stone level? Are these striations or microchips? Should I see a smooth edge at 1K or a toothy edge that smooths out as I progress through the hones?

Attachment 235366

There should not be any teeth/burrs after the 1k especially after the Chosera 1k

Since it is a quality razor and steel the answer to the burr lays in your hands, probably to many "Laps" or too much pressure doing those laps..

Watch the Water Ripple at the edge, apply just enough pressure to keep that wave either in front of or riding up onto the blade face.. No More then that for razor in good condition...


ps: Want to REALLY learn, then strop on only leather after the 1k and go shave, yes it really should shave at that level, then repeat after each level.. This will teach you quite a bit about what the hones actually do at each stage... This however takes more time then many want to invest :(

As stated by gssixgun pressure is not your friend. Whatever gains you get in speed establishing a bevel you lose trying to get all that stria knocked down later in your progression. When I first started out I also used too much pressure and honed with half strokes or japanese honing style and because of lack of experience only made my job more difficult. Excessive pressure does a lot of bad things if you have a thin razor like a full hollow you can seemingly hone forever and not get an edge because you are warping the blade and honing behind the edge. Also it can chip your blade and add deep stria like you have. Not good for beginner only creates more stuff to fix. I suggest revisiting the 1 K doing a quick jointing of the edge to knock back the saw tooth at the edge. This is done very gently on the hone a once back and forth breadknife like maneuver or drag it on the corner of your hone same thing. then rebuild your edge set your blade firmly without pushing down on the hone with a slight torque forward to the edge gently. Then just do X-Strokes carefully and watch the water as glen said riding the edge. Dont worry about how many strokes it takes dont count or any of that. Check with your optics how its coming along from time to time to see if your hitting out to the edge and along the whole bevel. keep going light until all that scuzz is gone check for bevel set and move on to the rest of your stones removing previous stria. No pressure just enough for good hone contact and then lighten up at finish. I think you will do better. My two cents hope it helps.

Looks about like a 1K edge to me, good job with the bevel set. It’s OK to make straight back and forth passes starting out. Ultimately your blade should lead heel first. The X stroke angle and helps smooth out imperfections.

Practice will help you develop the sense for pressure exerted on the blade. Keep doing the visual inspections at each interval and not only will you feel the differences, you will be able to see and interpret them as well,. Congratulations.
MIke

Welcome to SRP. I don't have the magnification to look that close. I found that the lower the magnification the better my honing looks ...... :p

Since you are starting out with an appreciation for the benefits of magnification, this thread might be useful to show where edges are at various stages of the game. :gl:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...pics-200x.html

Many thanks to everyone for such great help!

I followed the suggestion of Razorfaust and performed a "breadknife" followed by 50 very light stroke on the Chosera 1K. Using "light strokes", all of the "toothy" appearance of the edge never returned after bread knifing.

Here is the result:

Attachment 235452

At this point, I am not sure how to interpret the TPT and the razor still does not shave arm hair very well. I do not see any reflections looking straight down on the bevel suggesting an incomplete bevel set, but I'm not sure when to move on to the 5K stone.

1. Should I keep on the 1K until the razor shaves arm hair easily?
2. Try the cherry tomato test?
3. Any other suggestions about what to look for in the microscope at 100X?

Thanks

If the entire edge and bevel looks like that along the entire length of both sides, then your bevel is set. The main thing to look for in the scope is a continuous surface on the bevel with NO change all the way to the very edge. The edge should appear merely as the disappearance of the bevel. There should be no reflection, distortion, or change in appearance in the bevel at the edge.

If you really want to test your razor, strop it and shave. That would be the best test for a beginner. Strop and shave after you think you have finished with each hone.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

If the entire edge and bevel looks like that along the entire length of both sides, then your bevel is set. The main thing to look for in the scope is a continuous surface on the bevel with NO change all the way to the very edge. The edge should appear merely as the disappearance of the bevel. There should be no reflection, distortion, or change in appearance in the bevel at the edge.

If you really want to test your razor, strop it and shave. That would be the best test for a beginner. Strop and shave after you think you have finished with each hone.

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Here is a quote from an email Randydance sent me 9 years ago ;

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The purpose of the 1000 grit is to remove nicks and straighten/shape an edge. For that you use your eyes and the Thumb Nail Test (TNT), not the Thumb Pad Test (TPT). (see; Sharpness tests explained) The edge should be free of nicks and the bevel should go all the way to the edge. If you are using a hand held microscope then the bevel will appear as one color, if there are two bevels, old and new, then the light reflects off the bevel at different angles and appears as two colors. The scratch pattern should also be uniform for both the length and width of the bevel. When you have that then move on to the 4000, but not before.

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(emphasis mine)

The entire email, + a bit more can be found here in the SRP library for anyone interested ;

Honing - Alternative approaches - Straight Razor Place Library

Look at the edge straight down. If you see a reflection as in the first photo, the bevel is not set. The second photo the bevel is partially set. Once the bevel is completely set it will not reflect any light, as in the last photo, the shiny dots are dust.

Looking at the edge from the side, you can see if you are honing to the edge, but not if the bevels are meeting, fully from heel to toe. You do want an even stria pattern from heel to toe and edge to back of the bevel.

With hollow ground razors if you use too much pressure you will lift the edge off the stone as the blade flexes.

Feel every sharp edge you can find with your thumb, eventually you will know what a sharp edge feels like. A TPT will not feel a chip though, visually looking at the edge, is the quickest, non-destructive, most complete test of a fully set bevel.

Here is a good video of the test.

BTW, that is not bread-knifing, it is jointing, where you are just removing any ragged burr and straightening the edge slightly. Bread-knifing is grinding the edge straight on a low grit stone with pressure.

Attachment 235456

Attachment 235457

Attachment 235458

Looks much better and the stria seems to go out to the edge nicely. If you didn't see any shiny spots looking down at the razors edge, your job on the 1 k is most likely done. When you say it doesn't shave arm hair well, just for the hell of it do a quick stropping on linen and check if the arm hair cuts well after. It may clean up some of the crud left over from the stones if its still bad you may do a little more work on the 1k but I agree with the other guys that the bevel is most likely done. Move on to your next stone using the same regimen and look for the stria to refine check and keep going. When it comes to pressure I have found it helpful to shine a lamp on the razor in such a way as when you push down on the razor the reflection will reveal if your warping the blade or not. Keep in mind how much force it takes to effect the razor and you will understand the upper limit of honing pressure. As you progress through the grits keep your strokes light and careful this becomes more critical the sharper and finer the edge gets so slow down you will be rewarded in the end.

Enjoy and Good Luck!

Hi Everyone,

This is a follow up to my previous post #6 when I "jointed" the edge and started over using only very light X strokes on my Ralf Aust razor. Although there were no reflections on the edge and the bevel appeared to be "set" under the microscope, the razor shaved "just ok" after progressing through the 5K, 8K, 12K naniwa stones, 20K Gokumyo, and then stropping.

Just for the fun of it, I went ahead an "jointed" the edge again just to see if I could do better, because I remember this Ralf Aust shaved better after I purchased it from SRD about a year ago.

I decided to give Lynn's method another try as he demonstrates in the video using naniwa stones, only this time I used VERY LIGHT PRESSURE. Here are the results all at 100X magnification:


1K Chosera with 40 circles light pressure
Attachment 235829


1K Chosera 25 X strokes light pressure
Attachment 235833


5K with 40 circles light pressure
Attachment 235832


5K with 40 circles no pressure
Attachment 235832

5K with 25 X strokes light pressure
Attachment 235834

8K with 10 X strokes
Attachment 235835


12K with 10 X strokes
Attachment 235836

20K Gokuymo with 25 X strokes
Attachment 235837

Strop X 60 Laps
Attachment 235838


In conclusion, the razor now shaves much better with the above sequence using Lynn's approach than when it did when I was using only light X strokes. I think the explanation most likely is that the bevel was not completely set in my first trial and the extra 20 X strokes I did on the 5K until the razor shaved arm hair really well (compared to only 5 X strokes previously in the first trial).

However, I can still see a little bit of a "toothy edge" in the above photo, and I had a similar "toothy edge" even after on the previous trial when I used only very light X strokes and no circles:

The above photo of the Ralf Aust looks especially "toothy" when I compare it to two of my other razors below:

Livi Grilletto honed by SRD - shaves fantastically
Attachment 235839

Filarmonica 14 Barbas Duras NOS factory edge that shaves fantastically, I have shaved with this razor about 20 times and it has only been stropped.
Attachment 235828


The Ralf Aust with it's toothy edge shaves close now and really does very well, but not quite like the Grefetto or Filarmonica.

So I am thinking if I could get the Ralf Edge to look like the other edges, it might shave even better.

Here are a few remaining questions.
What do I need to do to get and edge like the filarmonica or the Grifetto? Seems that no matter what I do with the Ralf Aust, the edge is going to be "toothy".
Is the "toothy edge" the reason the Ralf Aust does not shave as well as the Filarmonica and Grifetto? Or is it a difference in the steel used in the razor?

Any comments and suggestions are welcome

I am concerned that you are not reaching the edge, as there does not appear to be much if any improvement as you progress up the grits.

As it shaved from SRD, IT was good , so it will be the man honing it, you. Have you honed them before to your satisfaction? Are you doing something different? How are your hones lapped,? It could be lots of things, like are you new to honing, most of us new guys don't get it as well as the more experienced guys do,, I guess more will come along to answer you, but no, if done right it shouldn't be toothy, Tc

Maybe you have blank razor which was not tempered and this is your problem... but I can tell this steel is no good for shaving...

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Originally Posted by proximus26

Maybe you have blank razor which was not tempered and this is your problem... but I can tell this steel is no good for shaving...

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I don't know what you mean by a "blank razor," but Vivaldi pointed out that he bought the razor from SRD a year ago and it shaved better at that time. If the blade had not been tempered, the steel would have been much harder than a normal razor and Lynn or Don would have noticed it when they honed it.

How can you tell that the "steel is no good for shaving?"

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

As it shaved from SRD, IT was good , so it will be the man honing it, you. Have you honed them before to your satisfaction? Are you doing something different? How are your hones lapped,? It could be lots of things, like are you new to honing, most of us new guys don't get it as well as the more experienced guys do,, I guess more will come along to answer you, but no, if done right it shouldn't be toothy, Tc

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Tcrideshd,

Yes, I am new to honing and I have never tried to hone this Ralf Aust before now. However, I purchased it new from SRD and it shaved better at that time.
Yes, I do lap all of my hones every time I use them using methods shown on many of the youtube videos.
When I put the razor on a straight counter, there is absolutely no wobble to it.

Utopian raised an interesting point that I may not be reaching the edge. I use one layer of electrical tape. It may be that in my quest for trying to use a light stroke I am reaching the edge. But when I did the prior series using more firm pressure, I still came out with a toothy edge that looked similar to the most recent one shown.

How frequently do you change the tape? Do you change it between grits?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

How frequently do you change the tape? Do you change it between grits?

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Utopian,
I have only been using one piece of tape throughout the entire honing process using all the stones with only the one same layer of tape.
Should I be changing the tape with each different hone grit?
Could this make it so that I am not reaching the edge?

Heavy use of a 1k will wear down the tape, you should change it after a 1k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vivaldi

Utopian,
I have only been using one piece of tape throughout the entire honing process using all the stones with only the one same layer of tape.
Should I be changing the tape with each different hone grit?
Could this make it so that I am not reaching the edge?

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So there is your problem and the good news for you is that it is easily solved. Think of the geometry of the razor. Tape lifts the spine a little off of the hone but as the tape wears the spine lowers. When that happens the very edge of the bevel lifts off of the hone and you are only honing a part of the bevel a bit back from the edge.

As you progress up the grits, EVEN IF you are using light pressure, you need to replace the tape to keep the spine at the same height so that the edge is contacting the hone. The tape wear and thinning reduces on the finer grits but it still happens. For that reason you must replace the tape more frequently and especially just before starting on your finishing hone.

Polished bevels do you no good if the polish does not reach all the way to the very edge of the bevels.

Problem solved for you!

Happy honing and shaving!

:y

OK,

didn't know that this was bought from SRD. If it was, then means all should be OK. However steel is steel, There is no two identical razors blades. I had 4 DD razors, all same series, brand new. All were honed by me but two of them were always giving me problem when shaving. I have sent them to one of the SRP members to hone them. He had same experience as me. So my point is, this is nature made steel which act in many different ways. Sometimes razors are better or worst, regardless where purchased. It does not mean that they can be used. I have one old $3 French razor I bought many years ago and is my best, better than DD, Fili or others...

Sometimes we just have to accept that perfection does not exist...

Of course there is slight variation in steel, but I don't think it can be assessed in the OP's photos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

So there is your problem and the good news for you is that it is easily solved. Think of the geometry of the razor. Tape lifts the spine a little off of the hone but as the tape wears the spine lowers. When that happens the very edge of the bevel lifts off of the hone and you are only honing a part of the bevel a bit back from the edge.

As you progress up the grits, EVEN IF you are using light pressure, you need to replace the tape to keep the spine at the same height so that the edge is contacting the hone. The tape wear and thinning reduces on the finer grits but it still happens. For that reason you must replace the tape more frequently and especially just before starting on your finishing hone.

Polished bevels do you no good if the polish does not reach all the way to the very edge of the bevels.

Problem solved for you!

Happy honing and shaving!

:y

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Utopian,

Many thanks for taking the time to help me solve my problem!

I am new to learning how to hone a razor and I never actually thought about whether or not it would be necessary to change the tape as I progress through the hones.

I may have been a tad too overconfident in my assessment, but I really do believe and hope that this resolves your problem. it's not the cure for all honing issues, but it will help to keep your edge on the hone, and that's a good thing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I may have been a tad too overconfident in my assessment, but I really do believe and hope that this resolves your problem. it's not the cure for all honing issues, but it will help to keep your edge on the hone, and that's a good thing!

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I think you're correct.

Also IMO there isn't much a need to drop to a 1k unless you have some issues you need to fix like chips or bevel issues. And starting with a 1k leaves deep scratches. You'll need to do a lot of work on the 5k. Only move up once you've removed the scratch pattern and have reached the apex on both sides. Otherwise the edge will stay toothy.

Replacing the tape is critical. You'll be doing most of your work behind the apex otherwise. Personally, when using tape on a razor spine I replace it as often as necessary on the coarser stones, then again when I'm about to switch to the next stone and do 20 very light laps. On the final stone I will do exactly the same, just to be safe. It's a good idea to manage the pressure on the tape also by lightly torquing the blade so more pressure is at the apex than the spine - but don't worry about this so much if you're a beginner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 86azms3

I think you're correct.

Also IMO there isn't much a need to drop to a 1k unless you have some issues you need to fix like chips or bevel issues. And starting with a 1k leaves deep scratches. You'll need to do a lot of work on the 5k. Only move up once you've removed the scratch pattern and have reached the apex on both sides. Otherwise the edge will stay toothy.

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Personally, I never would consider, or recommend, going from a 1k to a 5k. I know that others do it, but I definitely prefer smaller jumps. A 1k, 2k, 4/5k progression definitely would be my preference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Personally, I never would consider, or recommend, going from a 1k to a 5k. I know that others do it, but I definitely prefer smaller jumps. A 1k, 2k, 4/5k progression definitely would be my preference.

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I don't think most people know that a 4k jump at a 1-5k level is not the same as a 4k jump at a higher level.

I.e a 1k stone is around 16 microns, going to a 5k is 2.5 microns. A 6.4x magnification. A 5k to a 30k (.5 micron) stone is only a 5x magnification.


When people make a 1-5k jump no one bats an eye. If someone where to go from a 5k to a 30k, everyone would lose their mind.

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Originally Posted by 86azms3

everyone would lose their mind.

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Please tell me someone else read this in the joker's voice from The Dark Knight