Honing My Hart

Greetings Gentlemen,

The good news is that last Christmas I was given a Hart Steel razor -- a thing of physical beauty, wickedly sharp and butter smooth to shave with. A few "growing pains" with the square point, but I'm not complaining. The bad news is the time has finally come to hone it.

In the past, I've had great help here with my honing troubles on my Naniwa stones. While I've learned to do a good job with them (1k, 5k, 8k and 12k hones) on my Revisor and T-I straight, I'm not able to get the Hart up to snuff. It's not as sharp as it came, and it's sure not as buttery smooth.

For my sharpening routine, I use Lynn's approach from his videos:

20 circles with a bit of pressure (each side), and 20 more with petty much the blade's own weight, followed by about 10 laps. I do this on both the 1k and 5k stones.

Then on to the 8k and 12k stones for 10 or 12 laps each.

Next it's maybe 50 laps on a pasted T-I paddle strop.

Finally on to the hanging horse hide strop for 20 laps on linnen, 60 or so on the horse hide.


We now have a shaving shop in town that specializes in wet shaving. I thought I might pick up a 16k Shapton stone, but they don't have it and advised against using stones finer than the Naniwa 12k.

It could be my technique, of course -- maybe the Hart requires a different approach. I wouldn't know why, though. All my razors are hollow ground. Wait, maybe the Hart isn't hollow ground. I forget.

I wonder what others think? Get a shapton hone, like the 16k? Maybe one of these 4 sided box strops with different gradations of chromium paste? Other products, techniques or ideas?

Thanks for any thoughts.

If you are just going by rote Lyn's routine it may be that you are not working on the 1K Nani long enough to really set the bevel. If it isn't really set then going up the progression will not make it any sharper. I believe some on here have said Hart razors have hard steel and if that is the case all the more reason to stay on the 1K nani to be sure your bevel is set.

Bob

Bob,

Excellent observation -- you're right, I usually go through the steps not checking for sharpness til I'm done on the stones. Then I check with a version of the hanging hair -- will it pop leg hairs when passed 1 cm or so above the skin.

I should at least incorporate some sharpness checks into the routine.

Good point about Hart's hardness. This could well account for why my Revisor sharpened the same way at the same time came out sharp enough, while the Hart didn't!

Just a thought , why did you go all the wa back to the 1k? Did you try just touching up on the 12k for a few laps?, but the least invasive start would just put your edge Back to sharp Also if you went back to the 1k maybe you never got all the 1k Stria honed out which could have left a chippy edge which would not be smooth. From what I understand a hard blade could develope chips too from over honing, but there will be someone along who's better than me just thought I'd ask why. Tc

Yup...

:overkill:

Like Tc said, you overdid it. The oft used phrase around here is "less is more" when it comes to touching up your razor. When you felt that the razor no longer was shaving adequately, the first step should have been just your pasted strop. The odds are good that it alone would have been sufficient.

If you found that paste did not bring it back, then your 12k hone would have.

Do not bother getting a Shapton yet. If you cannot get a proper shave with what you already have, then another hone will not fix it.

I don't know why the Hart isn't sharpening up for you, but I agree with the advice not to get another hone. If the progression you have (I use the same progression) isn't working, adding another hone into the mix isn't going to help. If nothing has occurred to damage the bevel, all the blade should need is a refresh. If you're resetting the bevel, that happens at the 1000k level. The only benefit to going beyond a 12k is to refine an already perfectly set bevel, which doesn't seem to be the situation here. You are perfectly set up with the stone progression that you have. I would advise working with a mentor. Good luck.
'

I should have done it this way, now that you suggest it, TC'. If I was worried that the bevel was set differently I still could have blackened it with a marker, honed it on teh 12k, then checked it with my loupe to be sure the razor and hone were actually "talking" to eachother at the correct angle.

Dohhhh.

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

If you're resetting the bevel, that happens at the 1000k level.

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I know that you meant 1k level, but a re-set of the bevels of a razor that recently had been shaving would not need to go down to that low of a grit. A 4k would be more than sufficient.

So at this point do I really need to work that 1k . . . or is it more likely the 5k to smooth out the saw blade I made of it on the 1k?

That local shop offers a honing seminar for 2 hours on a Thursday evening. It probably couldn't hurt to take that, since it's local.

Harts are 1/4 hollow and originally honed with tape. I also think you need to feel your way through the hones instead of counting strokes. Check with you loupe. I find my Hart does take a bit longer than a full hollow razor.

Ok, this spells it out that I need to be very reluctant about going back to the 1k stone, if ever. And work my way down to it, unless I know for sure the bevel needs a reset.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I know that you meant 1k level, but a re-set of the bevels of a razor that recently had been shaving would not need to go down to that low of a grit. A 4k would be more than sufficient.

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Agreed. I think once a bevel is set, it shouldn't need a reset for years, maybe a lifetime.

Thanks JT'.

Better brush up on sharpness tests to help me discern when I've done what I meant to do on a given stone.

Looks like you guys have saved me the expense of an expensive Shapton that I was contemplating. I sure appreciate not spending good money on that. I would if it was a sure fire solution, but it seems pretty clear now that it's no sure fire solution to my problem.

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

Agreed. I think once a bevel is set, it shouldn't need a reset for years, maybe a lifetime.

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I did a honing session on my Imperial using the 5/8/12k progression and it came out very nice. I agree, once the bevel is set, I have learned from reading here and watching Lynn, no need to set it again, unless is extremely necessary.

The key here, I believe, is that the Hart was originally honed with tape. You need to either use tape with your edge renewal or go back to the bevel set with no tape and move your way up the progression. Right now you are polishing a 'shoulder'.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

The key here, I believe, is that the Hart was originally honed with tape. You need to either use tape with your edge renewal or go back to the bevel set with no tape and move your way up the progression. Right now you are polishing a 'shoulder'.

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Well advertised on their website :-)

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Originally Posted by BrentonC

Thanks JT'.

Better brush up on sharpness tests to help me discern when I've done what I meant to do on a given stone.

Looks like you guys have saved me the expense of an expensive Shapton that I was contemplating. I sure appreciate not spending good money on that. I would if it was a sure fire solution, but it seems pretty clear now that it's no sure fire solution to my problem.

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Along with sharpness tests at the lower grits I'd also use a loupe and learn to be able to see if your bevel is set or not. Nothing like a double check.

A 1K Nani is what I use to set bevels on my vintage razors when I get them because they invariable have chips and rust on the bevel. Yes, I like challenges. I'd agree with the others to start at your highest grit hone to do a touch up. If that does not work drop back one and see. With a blade in decent condition bevel and edge wise you would not really need to go lower that 3K-4K.

Just be sure that your bevel is set all along the edge no matter where you choose to start.

Bob

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Originally Posted by hrfdez

Well advertised on their website :-)

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Yep. Mine was tough to reset but since I brought it back up through the progression, it's been an incredible shaving tool. Better than factory, for sure.

Ouch, Lynn's latest (that I've seen) video on bevel setting (dated 2013) recommends 40 circles each side with 5 to 10 lbs of down force. Can that be right?

Yes, but that is quite different from what is needed for a touch-up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrentonC

Thanks JT'.

Better brush up on sharpness tests to help me discern when I've done what I meant to do on a given stone.

Looks like you guys have saved me the expense of an expensive Shapton that I was contemplating. I sure appreciate not spending good money on that. I would if it was a sure fire solution, but it seems pretty clear now that it's no sure fire solution to my problem.

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Brenton, the easiest test I've come across is DrMatt's YouTube video on bevel setting. After honing on the 1k, he checks to see how easily the razor will cut a cherry tomato. Watch the video for a full explanation. This method is great because it leaves very little to interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Yes, but that is quite different from what is needed for a touch-up.

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Good point.

Ok, I'd say the razor is definitely passing the thumb pad test right now, so I'll go to the 12K, work it more, understanding the Hart is harder steel than others, and see how that goes. If tomorrow's shave isn't good enough, I'll repeat, or go back to the 8K, and work my way up (12k, pasted strop, hanging strop as usual).

Wayne, I'm glad you mention DrMatt's video, because I just found it and watched it before leaving the office.

I'd thought to ask if everyone agreed with his thoughts, but I didn't want to seem to be coming from too many directions at once.

So, what does the edge look like, now?

Are you using tape?

I would be a bid dubious of the “Shaving Shop”, if they say you don’t need anything more than a 12K. What did they advise?

Before you do anything to the edge, look at it. What you do next, depends on what you see.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, what does the edge look like, now?

Are you using tape?

I would be a bid dubious of the “Shaving Shop”, if they say you don’t need anything more than a 12K. What did they advise?

Before you do anything to the edge, look at it. What you do next, depends on what you see.

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I wish I'd looked before starting to hone on it.

With the 10X loupe, the Hart is less smooth than the Revisor that I honed using the exact same sharpening routine, minus the bevel setting, as it was already set.

With the microscope at 80X, I can see more prominent striations on the Hart, and a few chips along the edge compared to the Revisor. Plus evidence of both having been used to shave. :-/

But wasn't the Hart also originally in a shave ready condition? If so, then why did you feel the need to set the bevel on the Hart but not the Revisor?

“With the microscope at 80X, I can see more prominent striations on the Hart, and a few chips along the edge compared to the Revisor. Plus evidence of both having been used to shave.” :-/


So, your bevel is probably not set. It does not matter why you did it, it is the edge you now have and have to fix.

Just, joint the edge and reset the bevel on the 5k, remove all the 1k stria.

Here, is a good post with micrographs, that will show you what to look for in a set bevel. And what the bevels and edge should look like up the progression. It is a bit long, but it does cover a new honers progress from start to finish. Second Try at Honing.

Next time, you need a refresh just look at it first, if you see micro-chips, joint it and reset the bevel on the 12K.

It is too late for that now, and you have to deal with 1k stria and an incompletely set bevel. Then remove the 5k stria, with the 8K, and the 8K, with the 12K.

It’s not that big a deal if you take your time and remove the previous grits stria up the progression.

Skip the TI paste it is Aluminum Oxide and very aggressive, TI’s are prone to chipping, and Aluminum Oxide paste may be too aggressive for the edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

But wasn't the Hart also originally in a shave ready condition? If so, then why did you feel the need to set the bevel on the Hart but not the Revisor?

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I'd set the bevel on the Revisor years ago when I bought it.

Yes, the Hart was shave ready when I received it. Boy was it ever nice and shave ready! Mistakenly, I thought I better start from the beginning to sharpen it. On the one hand, I wish I'd tried to just polish it up on the 12K and work my way back, if necessary.

That said, I don't like to use tape on the spine to hone my razors, so had I known that this is how Hart sharpens them at the factory, then that would have sent me back to the bevel any who.

I learnt to hone using Harts and Lynn's Shapton videos.
Boy did I ruin a lot of blades (shame on me) :)
I found the Hart Steel to be brittle and easily removed. Pressure will eat away that steel. I've a few fat bevels to prove that.

I was guilty of overdoing it also. Less is definitely the way forward.

I have a Hart custom that I hone with nearly no pressure and I still have trouble keeping the bevel width in check.
I'd write more but I'm at work .whoops... Good luck

Not knowing your hones, I would think that 10-12 laps isn't enough especially on the 8k, I would do 20 laps and check with an eye loupe and cut a bit of arm hair which should fall very crisply, if not do 10 more laps and repeat until it passes. Use Lynn's routine as an outline and starting point and not as a "works on anything" routine, Lynn has honed many thousands of razors and his hands are very calibrated unlike ours.

Job, thanks for risking your neck for me! Thanks for this.

Rob and Euclid, thanks also for these points. And for that link, Euclid. I'll study that closely.

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Originally Posted by BrentonC

Wayne, I'm glad you mention DrMatt's video, because I just found it and watched it before leaving the office.

I'd thought to ask if everyone agreed with his thoughts, but I didn't want to seem to be coming from too many directions at once.

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I don't agree with all his thoughts, or anyone else's. The cherry tomato tests works though. I'd tried the thumb pad and thumb nail tests, but they were too subjective for me. I'm sure with experience, one can tell if the bevel is set just by the feel of the stone, but until that time, I need some reliable method to let me know the bevel is there. Since learning the cherry tomato test, I've used it on 3 blades, all of which came out great.

I test by cutting arm hair, this is kind of hard to describe but when a bevel is set the hair will sort of ping very crisply and cut easily. This has been my test for 300+ razors and has never failed me. I also check the edge for any micro chipping every 30 laps or so

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

I don't agree with all his thoughts, or anyone else's. The cherry tomato tests works though. I'd tried the thumb pad and thumb nail tests, but they were too subjective for me. I'm sure with experience, one can tell if the bevel is set just by the feel of the stone, but until that time, I need some reliable method to let me know the bevel is there. Since learning the cherry tomato test, I've used it on 3 blades, all of which came out great.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

I don't agree with all his thoughts, or anyone else's. The cherry tomato tests works though. I'd tried the thumb pad and thumb nail tests, but they were too subjective for me. I'm sure with experience, one can tell if the bevel is set just by the feel of the stone, but until that time, I need some reliable method to let me know the bevel is there. Since learning the cherry tomato test, I've used it on 3 blades, all of which came out great.

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I guess ve missed that one, what's the cherry tomato test? Tc

There are some out there that maintain that being able to cut the skin of a cherry tomato is a 'test' to be able to see if the bevel is 'set'.

Personally I think that it's 'Rubbish' as our departed friend Neil would say as I can do that with simple kitchen knives that have a good edge.