Coticule sharpness and why not every coticule is a razor finisher.

I recently came to a revelation while playing around with my Stone Collection. There is a certain level of sharpness that a Belgian Stone can achieve and when compared to premium synthetic systems such as in my case the shapton glass. The Edge is not as Keen. What I mean by that is The Edge maxes out at a less Keen level just due to the variance in the whetstone's surface and composition. Sure the shaves are awesome but not as effortless as you can achieve with a Japanese water stone. This is especially noticeable when going against the grain for me. I have owned my fair share of the sweet yellow stones. And now I am down to only two. One that I use for sharpening and one for finishing. The effortlessness of the shave combined with the renowned smoothness it's really for me the epitome of how a Belgian Stone should leave the edge. I'm not discrediting the use of a Coti because I think they are wonderful stones and my favorite type I am just wanted to share a few Thoughts with you all.

Few years ago in 2009 it came out that you could do with one stone honing method on a Belgian Stone and everyone was led to believe that any Coti could be used as a razor finisher. I find this to be quite misleading as in the old days these stones were graded according to their fineness and only the finest were selected for use on straight razors. With the decline in popularity of straight razor shaving in the 20th century so declined the need to grade these stones like they used to be. Sure you might be able to shave off of whatever Stone you get. Though it may not be optimally finished and this is what keeps people searching for that one. The 1 that agrees with their beard and skin type that will make the razor's Edge what they want. That is the elusive search that we are all after that use these stones.

A while back I remember watching videos on YouTube by Sham. He alluded to this that not every stone was a razor finisher and at the time I didn't know how to take it. I was so brainwashed by what was put on coticule.be that I didn't believe him. What do you mean? Of course every stone can finish a razor to what I have come to expect. This led to a lot of frustration. It does take time to learn a stone I am not saying it doesn't but what I'm saying is when you take in a stone as far as you can and it's still not pleasing you at a certain point you've got to step back and realize that maybe it isn't you. These little tricks we're all came up with for one single reason to try and makeup for a Stone that will not finish the edge to where they want it.

I apologize in advance for the rant but I've been pondering it for a while and sure it's fun to try different stones but the real quest to find one that works for you and not everyone has the same ideals when it comes to what and Edge should be. What works for one may not work for another and so on and so forth.

When done right a fine enough coticule will leave the edge absolutely stunning and will give you one of the finest shaves of your life. If your coticule isn't leaving your edge where you want it don't despair there is more then one way to boost the keenness and get the edge to where you like it. I will not discuss that here. I just want to open discussion about the topic.

I've never had a tug free shave with a coti. I've had 3, currently have 1. I've had pro honers finish my wade and butcher for barbers use on a coti, same results. I think the variation in stones is equally matched by the variations in each individuals beard. I'm not saying the shaves are bad, they are exceptionally smooth, it's just that skin stretching and blade angle have to be payed close attention to. Rather than stay continually frustrated trying to find out why coticules tug at my face, I switched to jnats almost exclusively. The tugging is not so bad wtg, but for me, an ATG is impossible with a coti edge... I realize people will read this and completely disagree with what I've said, but why would I make this up?

I agree with this, of course, but to expand on the topic a little we may consider two other factors that affect the shave: preparation and technique.

Has a razor ever given you a totally different shave, when you prepare your face differently, or perhaps use a different product?

Do you find that an edge off of a different stone forces you to adjust your technique in order to make that edge work (have you succeeded at it)?

As I use naturals exclusively and currently own around 10 different finishers, I would say I experienced this many times. To focus on the Coti, yes, some of them won't finish as well as some others, but that's not to say I can't make those edges work... Well, I've had one, or two when I couldn't make them work.

So I'm not disagreeing at all, I own a vintage coti that will not finish a razor well enough for me, but will adjust bevels in minutes.

One last remark, the new production cotis are wonderful stones and finish razors easily, once you've spent some time with them. Perhaps those vintage ones, I've had the pleasure to try (and fail at finishing) weren't supposed to be razor hones. Who knows, right?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ........ IMHO the reason almost all of the old time barbers (60s-70s) I knew in the 1980s used coticules was exactly because they gave an edge that was keen enough, but not too keen. I don't believe one of those guys would've wanted the kind of edge that you get with a high grit synthetic. They were shaving customers, not just themselves.

As Gary Haywood (pro barber and coticule aficionado) posted after he tried a yellow green escher I sold to him .... "Too crisp." This is not to say that the edges off a good coticule finisher aren't plenty keen, just not 'scary sharp' the way something off a synthetic might be. Of course, even though I'm right ....... it is only IMHO ....... ;)

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Attachment 245947

Coticules have a place at the honing table. You cannot have mine. well most of mine. A one hone stone it CAN be with time and patience. Era gone bye. Speed and repeatability is the new reality. Sunday in the shade doing a touch-up after church and chicken.Has flown the coup for most. The Romans used them, I have edges for just Coti. BBW and a pink one are my keepers. Setting a bevel from scratch is a bear. 300 laps on thick Blue slurry to set it proper. Never lay a foundation twice. If you are down for the work it is the bees knees .Coticule is comfortable at an8-10K grit. Coticule.be had me searching and hunting for a year for a unicorn, when it was in my toolbox all along. Time,laps, pressure and slurry. 4 factors all interdependent. balanced is bliss. Coti vs escher vs trans ark vs Zulu vs jnat. and the list goes on.Buttery smooth is valued.Work put in, buttery on the backside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Attachment 245947

---

Thanks for the flash and the migraine. Thanks John.

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time. :beer1:

Attachment 245957Attachment 245958

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

---

That is how many of us raise a slurry on a larger coticule with a small coticule bout.

I remember Maurice Celis of Ardennes Coticule telling us during the October meet last year that he had had an issue with coticules that contained no garnets. Garnets aren't evenly distributed within coticule veins. He uses Herder paring knives to test coticules. If the knife does not leave any visible swarf on the hone it is one without garnets. Using this test you may even find that the garnets aren't evenly distributed within a coticule.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time. :beer1:

Attachment 245957Attachment 245958

---

Yes it is pretty well known fact among coticule users that the diamond s fracture the garnets and lead to faster cutting but a more damaged edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pithor

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

---

Pieter, I am not saying you can't shave off every coticule and I am not saying the shaves you can achieve are not comfortable. I am saying picking a coticule at random and expecting 10k plus edge is unreasonable because most top out much lower than that. Very fine finishers do exist but are most people going to put the time and money in to find one? No they will stick with what they've got and shave off it even if it is not the best that edge could be. How are they to know any different if they have only tried a few coticules, they might think its the best thing since sliced bread and that my friend is the common goal to find a stone that you are truly happy with. A very comfortable forgiving edge is easily obtained with a coticule but that sharpness is not what a high grit synthetic can provide and the edge resistance can mostly be felt. This is why such tricks like unicot were invented. To bypass the keenness limit of mediocre coticules. It can be used with any coticule but helps those that max out keenness lower then ideal.

I have shaved of coticule and had a mediocre shave and off another the best shave in the world. The point I am trying to get through to new guys is not every coticule is an ideal razor finishing stone.

Do you know how many times I get messged or even in posts where members struggle to get that final edge. The first thing we tell them is to use a misty slurry and more half laps, strop it etc. The whole point is the coticule is struggling to finish the edge so if you are coming to the finishing stage and water only laps aren't doing it.. There's a problem and that can be dissected as well doing a one stone honing. Of course it works but is a lot harder then using up to ~5k and synthetics and using water only the coticule. Slurry creates damage to the edge. Water only laps should be used for finishing for the best possible edge. I even think Dr Matt would agree with me on that one.

What I don't like is guys being misinformed. Coticules are wonderful stones I have spent hundreds of hours learning and this is my experience with them. Not all are razor finishers... Simply put. Are all jnats finishers? No why on earth would all coticules be. They are natural and vary and that's what makes them so intriguing. The search for that magical edge only given when a certain ritual is used. So go and have fun and you will figure out what works and what doesn't. Just don't beat yourself up if you've tried everything and nothing is working. You got a sub par coticule. They are more prevalent then most dedicated users would like to believe.

Food for thought

Yes, the performance variability of naturals is probably their biggest drawback.

Yet, in that variability, especially with coti s, is the source of continuing interest. I now have 3 natural combos and 1 modern glue up. The way the blue and yellow touch is something that I consider to be absolutely fascinating and individual as fingerprints.

When I get a great shave off one of these it is somehow more satisfying. I will admit that this very week I reached for the Nani12k to get a new old one ready for 1st shave. I guess I enjoy diversity in honing options.

It is certain that honing offers us the best of all worlds- on one hand the benefit of tribal knowledge, advice and proven techniques -on the other hand the essentially endless opportunity to experiment and satisfy curiosity.

I have a nice La Grise rectangular and a La Dressante bout. On some of my razors I can put a remarkable edge, on others, not so remarkable... Not all blades are the same. Should we expect one stone to provide a great edge on every blade? Many of the professional honers here use different stones for different razor makes...

Well said guys!
My 1¢,
I have honed with man made and natural stones. Each of them; when understood, meaning used and knowing how each stone behaves, will give a fairly good to outstanding shave.
That said, My go to at the shave corner is a natural stone because it does not need soaking. A good Coticule and a Medium Thuringer don't take up much room.
Don't get me wrong, I do like to play with stones. A man-made set or a couple naturals at the bench works well for me.
Just don't believe the first honing you do on a natural is going to be as nice as one a year of renewing razors on that stone a year later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cau

I have a nice La Grise rectangular and a La Dressante bout. On some of my razors I can put a remarkable edge, on others, not so remarkable... Not all blades are the same. Should we expect one stone to provide a great edge on every blade? Many of the professional honers here use different stones for different razor makes...

---

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

I agree with most of what has been said here.. Not all coticules are "razor grade." I've used quite a few before arriving at my favorites, and two of them will rival the edges off any natural stone .. However, they are both capable of providing edges that are a bit to crispy for me, hence, I most often finish with them on misty slurry, to ease that. That said, most coticules are capable of a shavable edge, I've found. That runs counter to what has been written on many outposts on the internet pertaining to these stones, but, science without proper scientific protocol is merely pseudoscience!
I often said that if I didn't have coticules to finish on, I would be and Escher/Thuringian user .. They too provide a nice edge for me. JNats , again can produce a crisp edge for my face... So, I always come back to my favored coticules .. Not because I want the keenest edge, but because I want that combination of keen and smooth, and coticules provide that ... for me.
All this is highly personal. depending on many factors, but a very wise friend once told me this ... "Often, we're chasing the wrong side of sharp!"

Very true!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

---

I agree with you we should expect one stone to provide a great edge on any blade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

---

I tend to agree, but in spite of that, I do have a few blades that seem to just perform better off certain stones. Of course, it could be my imagination, the phase of the moon, or the incantations I say over specific stones!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

---

Interesting. I have two blades that I have not been able to get to my liking on either of my coticules. No geometry issues with either. I believe they just have harder steel. I can shave with them, but I'm not happy with them. Perhaps they need more time on the hones than I've given them. Perhaps I need more experience...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

---

I think 99 out 100 you're right. I have a TI Silverwing that only takes a keen edge with my Rouge de Salm hone. The RdS is my softest hone and Silverwings are usually very hard steel IIRC. Soft hone for harde steel and v.v.

I've had a couple of ATS-34, and still have a couple of S30V, that need a diamond plate for bevel set, and a synthetic progression to get shave ready. At least at my house that is what they need. YMMV.

Old barber (70) cutting hair for 50 years, Frank Natale. Told me in 1980s that he liked a soft coticule that he could score with his thumb nail. So of course I've tried this with every coticule I've ever had. There is just something about coticules. If I wrote a book about them it would be the 'romance' of the coticule. :)

The most common problem with coticules and there new owners? Is they just lack that little bit or so keeness. You can do a thousand laps on water and still no joy. This is what frustrates and makes you wonder why there is no improvement . I,ve stopped trying to master any and every coticule I lay my hands on, I simply don't have the time, I have to Belgium coticules that give me consistant results so I have no need to master any more coticules, not that I would.

I have tried and tested a thew newer coticules and to be onest there not for me . I tend to recommend the naniwas to any one wanting to learn to hone, I think a lot of the newer coticules don't have the appearance of the older mined coticules , I,m talking 5/6 years ago when all the main veins was available.

I,ve tested many coticule edges for members and there is no Dout they are not producing shave ready edges to the standard I would want to shave with.

If I was to start out now I,m sure I would be using the naniwas, they have a nice feel and can produce smooth keen edges with out any hassle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I've had a couple of ATS-34, and still have a couple of S30V, that need a diamond plate for bevel set, and a synthetic progression to get shave ready. At least at my house that is what they need. YMMV.

Old barber (70) cutting hair for 50 years, Frank Natale. Told me in 1980s that he liked a soft coticule that he could score with his thumb nail. So of course I've tried this with every coticule I've ever had. There is just something about coticules. If I wrote a book about them it would be the 'romance' of the coticule. :)

---

,,,and you forgot to mention that I have Frank Natale's barber hone. Shaving History !! Attachment 246001

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gary haywood

The most common problem with coticules and there new owners? Is they just lack that little bit or so keeness. You can do a thousand laps on water and still no joy. This is what frustrates and makes you wonder why there is no improvement . I,ve stopped trying to master any and every coticule I lay my hands on, I simply don't have the time, I have to Belgium coticules that give me consistant results so I have no need to master any more coticules, not that I would.

I have tried and tested a thew newer coticules and to be onest there not for me . I tend to recommend the naniwas to any one wanting to learn to hone, I think a lot of the newer coticules don't have the appearance of the older mined coticules , I,m talking 5/6 years ago when all the main veins was available.

I,ve tested many coticule edges for members and there is no Dout they are not producing shave ready edges to the standard I would want to shave with.

If I was to start out now I,m sure I would be using the naniwas, they have a nice feel and can produce smooth keen edges with out any hassle.

---

Gary my good friend who pobably has the most experience out of anyone I know with a coticule couldn't have put it any better.

The coticule was the first "better" hone I got. I used to use a Kitayama which was supposed to be a 12K though it really wasn't.

I bought my coticule probably 10 years ago and I got very respectable shaves out of it and still do though I have better hones these days.

Ive tryed alround 20 old stock coticules and they varie a lot in qualitys . I get the hang of the hard ones as they are very slow on plain water = You just have to make the dilution very good and end with a good shaving edje , and after go to plain water and move the razor forth and back on the stone this gave me best edge for the stones ive try
Coticules are the most unconsistent hones Honestly my Jnatprefinishers easily will beat them any day
Now i love coticules for midle work . They are strong there - ater the 1 K stone
I think that coticules that are hard and glassy , or those without garnets will finish razors better han the fast ones
ive had only 2 times amazing shaves off coticule and they were both on very fine and hard stones I think cotcules are better for heavyer grind razors , where they shine better as finishers
This was only my opinion