Thread: Coticule sharpness and why not every coticule is a razor finisher.

I recently came to a revelation while playing around with my Stone Collection. There is a certain level of sharpness that a Belgian Stone can achieve and when compared to premium synthetic systems such as in my case the shapton glass. The Edge is not as Keen. What I mean by that is The Edge maxes out at a less Keen level just due to the variance in the whetstone's surface and composition. Sure the shaves are awesome but not as effortless as you can achieve with a Japanese water stone. This is especially noticeable when going against the grain for me. I have owned my fair share of the sweet yellow stones. And now I am down to only two. One that I use for sharpening and one for finishing. The effortlessness of the shave combined with the renowned smoothness it's really for me the epitome of how a Belgian Stone should leave the edge. I'm not discrediting the use of a Coti because I think they are wonderful stones and my favorite type I am just wanted to share a few Thoughts with you all.

Few years ago in 2009 it came out that you could do with one stone honing method on a Belgian Stone and everyone was led to believe that any Coti could be used as a razor finisher. I find this to be quite misleading as in the old days these stones were graded according to their fineness and only the finest were selected for use on straight razors. With the decline in popularity of straight razor shaving in the 20th century so declined the need to grade these stones like they used to be. Sure you might be able to shave off of whatever Stone you get. Though it may not be optimally finished and this is what keeps people searching for that one. The 1 that agrees with their beard and skin type that will make the razor's Edge what they want. That is the elusive search that we are all after that use these stones.

A while back I remember watching videos on YouTube by Sham. He alluded to this that not every stone was a razor finisher and at the time I didn't know how to take it. I was so brainwashed by what was put on coticule.be that I didn't believe him. What do you mean? Of course every stone can finish a razor to what I have come to expect. This led to a lot of frustration. It does take time to learn a stone I am not saying it doesn't but what I'm saying is when you take in a stone as far as you can and it's still not pleasing you at a certain point you've got to step back and realize that maybe it isn't you. These little tricks we're all came up with for one single reason to try and makeup for a Stone that will not finish the edge to where they want it.

I apologize in advance for the rant but I've been pondering it for a while and sure it's fun to try different stones but the real quest to find one that works for you and not everyone has the same ideals when it comes to what and Edge should be. What works for one may not work for another and so on and so forth.

When done right a fine enough coticule will leave the edge absolutely stunning and will give you one of the finest shaves of your life. If your coticule isn't leaving your edge where you want it don't despair there is more then one way to boost the keenness and get the edge to where you like it. I will not discuss that here. I just want to open discussion about the topic.

I've never had a tug free shave with a coti. I've had 3, currently have 1. I've had pro honers finish my wade and butcher for barbers use on a coti, same results. I think the variation in stones is equally matched by the variations in each individuals beard. I'm not saying the shaves are bad, they are exceptionally smooth, it's just that skin stretching and blade angle have to be payed close attention to. Rather than stay continually frustrated trying to find out why coticules tug at my face, I switched to jnats almost exclusively. The tugging is not so bad wtg, but for me, an ATG is impossible with a coti edge... I realize people will read this and completely disagree with what I've said, but why would I make this up?

I agree with this, of course, but to expand on the topic a little we may consider two other factors that affect the shave: preparation and technique.

Has a razor ever given you a totally different shave, when you prepare your face differently, or perhaps use a different product?

Do you find that an edge off of a different stone forces you to adjust your technique in order to make that edge work (have you succeeded at it)?

As I use naturals exclusively and currently own around 10 different finishers, I would say I experienced this many times. To focus on the Coti, yes, some of them won't finish as well as some others, but that's not to say I can't make those edges work... Well, I've had one, or two when I couldn't make them work.

So I'm not disagreeing at all, I own a vintage coti that will not finish a razor well enough for me, but will adjust bevels in minutes.

One last remark, the new production cotis are wonderful stones and finish razors easily, once you've spent some time with them. Perhaps those vintage ones, I've had the pleasure to try (and fail at finishing) weren't supposed to be razor hones. Who knows, right?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ........ IMHO the reason almost all of the old time barbers (60s-70s) I knew in the 1980s used coticules was exactly because they gave an edge that was keen enough, but not too keen. I don't believe one of those guys would've wanted the kind of edge that you get with a high grit synthetic. They were shaving customers, not just themselves.

As Gary Haywood (pro barber and coticule aficionado) posted after he tried a yellow green escher I sold to him .... "Too crisp." This is not to say that the edges off a good coticule finisher aren't plenty keen, just not 'scary sharp' the way something off a synthetic might be. Of course, even though I'm right ....... it is only IMHO .......

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Coticules have a place at the honing table. You cannot have mine. well most of mine. A one hone stone it CAN be with time and patience. Era gone bye. Speed and repeatability is the new reality. Sunday in the shade doing a touch-up after church and chicken.Has flown the coup for most. The Romans used them, I have edges for just Coti. BBW and a pink one are my keepers. Setting a bevel from scratch is a bear. 300 laps on thick Blue slurry to set it proper. Never lay a foundation twice. If you are down for the work it is the bees knees .Coticule is comfortable at an8-10K grit. Coticule.be had me searching and hunting for a year for a unicorn, when it was in my toolbox all along. Time,laps, pressure and slurry. 4 factors all interdependent. balanced is bliss. Coti vs escher vs trans ark vs Zulu vs jnat. and the list goes on.Buttery smooth is valued.Work put in, buttery on the backside.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Thanks for the flash and the migraine. Thanks John.

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time.

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

That is how many of us raise a slurry on a larger coticule with a small coticule bout.

I remember Maurice Celis of Ardennes Coticule telling us during the October meet last year that he had had an issue with coticules that contained no garnets. Garnets aren't evenly distributed within coticule veins. He uses Herder paring knives to test coticules. If the knife does not leave any visible swarf on the hone it is one without garnets. Using this test you may even find that the garnets aren't evenly distributed within a coticule.