Honing a W&B wedge, was giving me fits!

Ok I bought a W&B wedge not long ago while at a gun show, say it peaking out from under a glass case and nabbed it. Blade and scales are both in good shape for a razor that is 100+ years old. Well I have been trying to get it honed up so I could shave with this baby and 2 times now I thought oh heck it is taking arm hair I must have it only to be disappointed when it came time to test shave. So I finally purchased a pocket microscope and tonight I learned what an important tool that is to have and what in the world I am supposed to be doing with it!

So I decided that tonight I was going to play with getting a bevel set on this razor. Put on 3 layers of tape got a nice uniform bevel that I could see with my naked eye, removed 1 layer of tape and continued on 15 micron lapping film. Again I got a really nice even bevel, was sticky to the pad of my finger and was biting into my wet nail so I thought ok bevel set. I looked at it with my scope and far as I could see both side of the edge came down and met.

Onto my lesson, So I started going up 4k, 8k and 12k. 4k looked good then I went to 8k. The edge was polished except for what looked like a super fine grey line right at the very edge. I thought what in the world?? Went back to 4k for a bit all looked well, as soon as I would start getting a polish on my edge from 8k out would come this line! Finally under my scope I was able to find that when I had 3 layers of tape I had set my bevel, then once I removed the 1 layer of tape and thought I had re set my bevel I had in fact not!!! There was still stria pattern from the 15um lapping film at the very edge, That was the grey line I was seeing. Im not gonna lie it sure looked like it but, I had not actually brought both sides of the blade to an apex to create a bevel with 2 layers of tape like I had thought. So once I put 3 layers of tape back on and went to the lapping film it took only a few strokes to get my original bevel back and nice stria pattern. then 4k and on up.

Finally I have a wedge razor that I promise you will shave I have not one doubt in my mind! I have been chasing my tail and not getting why in the world I can get edges on every other razor I own except my wedges. Now I can see what in the heck I am doing so I believe my other wedge will be in rotation soon enough :D

Bottom line learn your tools and it no longer is work. Thanks for letting me get that out fellas, I hope this may help someone some day

Good job getting it figured out. its a good idea to kill the edge before resetting the bevel with a layer of tape removed. Otherwise your bevel tests won't tell you anything.

I will remember that I have another W&B wedge to get too that I have had even longer. I guess honestly I don't know why I was removing a layer of tape in the first place. I feel like I have read that at some point but can not remember for sure. I guess I will just stick with 3 layers of tape and be happy :D Thank you for the advice Bejay

I have heard of people adding a layer of tape before going to the finishing hone but never removing a layer of tape. In any event good work in figuring it all out in the end.

Bob

Why not start and finish with 4 layers of tape ?
Strop with no tape, weightless, tiny slack..
I love honing W & B.

[QUOTE=JOB15;1681248]Why not start and finish with 4 layers of tape ?
Strop with no tape, weightless, tiny slack..
I love honing W & B.[/QUOTE

Well I went with 3 initially because that is what felt right. Other than that I have no good answer for my actions. Like I said I really have no Idea why I removed 1 layer in the first place. Putting another layer back on was the right thing to do in any event. I finished everything with 3 layers, I have yet to strop it that will come in the a.m. once I get home ;)

[QUOTE=ejmolitor37;1681249]

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Why not start and finish with 4 layers of tape ?
Strop with no tape, weightless, tiny slack..
I love honing W & B.[/QUOTE

Well I went with 3 initially because that is what felt right. Other than that I have no good answer for my actions. Like I said I really have no Idea why I removed 1 layer in the first place. Putting another layer back on was the right thing to do in any event. I finished everything with 3 layers, I have yet to strop it that will come in the a.m. once I get home ;)

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If your having trouble reaching the edge you have a few options.
1. Bring each side of the bevel to a flatness. Not easy.

2. Hone with trickery rolling x's and so forth.Takes time to learn.

3. Add another layer of tape. Easy.

I always hone with 2 layers of tape personally.

I could be wrong in what I say but I have thousands of hours honing under my belt and I know what works for me.

Good luck..keep at it...

Thank you for the advice, on my hollow grounds I have been trying to just use 1 layer just to protect the spine from me. But from my reading these old wedges take more tape or just let it ride which I first did attempt with this razor but it started getting close to the "fine india steel " stamp in the center of the blade so that is why I went with tape. Thanks again JOB15

I personally would not through the idea of using four layers of tape out there unless the blade has some serious issues. That much tape will cause a notable change in the geometry of the bevel. The layers also become squishy and give you an inconsistent surface. Not saying that it can't be done, but it should be avoided if possible IMO. A wedge CAN be a pain if it has a lot of wear and a wide bevel. I've also honed old Sheffield wedges with little to no wear then honed up as easy and the thinnest hollow ground blade(without tape). The wider the bevel, the more work you have to do on each stone. There really isn't a magic number for layers of tape. You've got to figure out what's going to work for you and the specific blade that your working on. Once that bevel is set though, you've got to either stick with that many layers, or reset it with a different amount of layers.

Good job figuring things out. Once you establish a bevel set, if you flatten your angle(this is what happens when removing tape), you lose your ability to reach the edge of the blade with the hone.

I've seen it written here many times that you can remove a layer of tape and re-establish the bevel with a dozen or so laps. This may be true for a typical hollow grind, but a wedge can easily take 5 or 10 times that number due to the greater quantity of metal to be removed caused by the wider bevel area. Also, be very mindful of tape wear when bevel setting - at the tape wears, the edge starts to lose contact.

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

I've seen it written here many times that you can remove a layer of tape and re-establish the bevel with a dozen or so laps. This may be true for a typical hollow grind, but a wedge can easily take 5 or 10 times that number due to the greater quantity of metal to be removed caused by the wider bevel area. Also, be very mindful of tape wear when bevel setting - at the tape wears, the edge starts to lose contact.

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Yes, I do believe I saw that in a thread on heavy blade restoration/resetting a bevel on a heavily chipped blade. Something like starting with 1 or 2 extra layers of tape and honing on a 1K bevel setter till the chips are pretty much gone. Then remove the extra layers of tape and continue on the 1K till you have your final bevel established before going up the progression.

The other times I have heard it mentioned to remove a layer of tape is before the finishing hone to produce a segmented bevel shaped similarly to a hipped roof.

Yes, I'd watch the tape wear, especially on the bevel set hone. The edge should not really loose contact as the tape wears but your bevel may become slightly wider making it take longer on the next hone to remove the striations of the previous. You have to wear the edge back on the next hone to get to the shoulder established by the previous hone. Just more work and steel loss added.

Yup, heavier grinds do take longer.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BeJay

I personally would not through the idea of using four layers of tape out there unless the blade has some serious issues. That much tape will cause a notable change in the geometry of the bevel. The layers also become squishy and give you an inconsistent surface. Not saying that it can't be done, but it should be avoided if possible IMO. A wedge CAN be a pain if it has a lot of wear and a wide bevel. I've also honed old Sheffield wedges with little to no wear then honed up as easy and the thinnest hollow ground blade(without tape). The wider the bevel, the more work you have to do on each stone. There really isn't a magic number for layers of tape. You've got to figure out what's going to work for you and the specific blade that your working on. Once that bevel is set though, you've got to either stick with that many layers, or reset it with a different amount of layers.

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No offence , and I respect your scientific point of view.

I have just shaved off a W&B 8/8ths honed with 4.5 layers of tape . The shave was some thing very special. My had was slightly shaking at the blades majesty and effects.

I will add this to hone of the day and so forth after I taken pictures . I've been waiting for daylight and free time to do so.

Adding a layer of tape here and there does not make as much a difference as most people believe.

I restore and hone quite a few W&B's , admittedly with hone ware. My most favoured W&B is a smiling near wedge that takes 6 layers and it holds a very special edge for a considerable amount of time.

I challenge you to take a near wedge and use 4 layers of tape and check out the results.

All the best.. Joseph

Ok so I took the other wedge I have been fighting and put 4 layers of tape on. Again nice bevel back toward the heel it was a bit thinner than the rest of the bevel, but I changed the tape as needed and used 4 layers all through my progression and I am feeling very well about this blade as well. I will be doing a test shave Sunday or Monday and can not wait to see the results. I think I could have went with 3 layers but my bevel would have been a bit more unsightly which who cares at the end of the day I am the one shaving with it :D I guess too JOB15 since I will be doing a test shave with 2 near wedges it might be interesting to see if there is a difference in how they shave? Since one was honed with 3 layers and one with 4 layers... I honestly doubt it will matter but we shall see. Thanks for the encouragement as always fellas and advice, you guys are a great bunch.

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

I've seen it written here many times that you can remove a layer of tape and re-establish the bevel with a dozen or so laps. This may be true for a typical hollow grind, but a wedge can easily take 5 or 10 times that number due to the greater quantity of metal to be removed caused by the wider bevel area. Also, be very mindful of tape wear when bevel setting - at the tape wears, the edge starts to lose contact.

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The more I have been thinking about why I was using tape and removing a layer was this, I was theorizing in my mind that if I set the bevel with 3 layers, removed a layer and reset and removed a layer and reset that eventually I would be down to not having to use tape. Which honestly really makes no sense in the long run because my bevel would be a mile wide which I know really don't matter as long as it is set. I know this, it seemed right while I was doing it but the edge and micro scope proved me wrong. Now yes I could have made my theory work but that would have been a lot, a lot of bevel resetting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

No offence , and I respect your scientific point of view.

I have just shaved off a W&B 8/8ths honed with 4.5 layers of tape . The shave was some thing very special. My had was slightly shaking at the blades majesty and effects.

I will add this to hone of the day and so forth after I taken pictures . I've been waiting for daylight and free time to do so.

Adding a layer of tape here and there does not make as much a difference as most people believe.

I restore and hone quite a few W&B's , admittedly with hone ware. My most favoured W&B is a smiling near wedge that takes 6 layers and it holds a very special edge for a considerable amount of time.

I challenge you to take a near wedge and use 4 layers of tape and check out the results.

All the best.. Joseph

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no offense taken. And I have honed big choppers with four layers and had great results. Like I said, it can be done(and sometimes should be), but it's not something that I feel should be done on every near wedge. another thing to keep in mind is the width of the blade. Four layers on a 5/8 will affect the geometry much more then on an 8/8. If I'm doing a serious restore I will usually opt for more tape for cosmetic reasons. If it's something I'm just going to clean up and use I'll use less.

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

The more I have been thinking about why I was using tape and removing a layer was this, I was theorizing in my mind that if I set the bevel with 3 layers, removed a layer and reset and removed a layer and reset that eventually I would be down to not having to use tape. Which honestly really makes no sense in the long run because my bevel would be a mile wide which I know really don't matter as long as it is set. I know this, it seemed right while I was doing it but the edge and micro scope proved me wrong. Now yes I could have made my theory work but that would have been a lot, a lot of bevel resetting.

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It's pretty common for guys to do tough bevel sets with the method that your describing. It Seems to make the process go a little faster I suppose. You can also do a sharpie test to get a good look at your progress as you bring in a new angle. Really wide bevels can be a pain to set, and that's a good reason to ad tape. As far as the cosmetics go, it's your blade so do what you like. There really isnt a right or wrong answer as far as that goes. I like a nice thin bevel on some razors, but sometime a big fat polished bevel can look really cool on an old blade.

This second wedge JOB15 mentions the 4 layers on I tried setting it "neked" and if I would have got there my clothes would be out of fashion and the entire blade face would be polished :D I guess since these are the first wedges I have tried to hone I was trying to get there as easily or in the same swift fashion I have with hollows and it just wasn't making sense to me until the other night, like a light bulb went off:D Usually I try and use minimal layers of tape and eventually would not mind be able to hone without tape though it really don't matter. Thanks again for your insight guys I appreciate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

No offence , and I respect your scientific point of view.

I have just shaved off a W&B 8/8ths honed with 4.5 layers of tape . The shave was some thing very special. My had was slightly shaking at the blades majesty and effects.

I will add this to hone of the day and so forth after I taken pictures . I've been waiting for daylight and free time to do so.

Adding a layer of tape here and there does not make as much a difference as most people believe.

I restore and hone quite a few W&B's , admittedly with hone ware. My most favoured W&B is a smiling near wedge that takes 6 layers and it holds a very special edge for a considerable amount of time.

I challenge you to take a near wedge and use 4 layers of tape and check out the results.

All the best.. Joseph

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Ok JOB15, test shave today us done. Both blades really did well. It's a different feel and the blades seemed to want to stick to my skin. Removed about 3 days growth no problem and honestly after 1 pass that was probably the closest first pass I have ever had!
Now the blade I honed with 4 layers seemed to perform better but not by alot. Just all around a different experience but finally a positive one :) [emoji106] I'm gonna shave again with these blades before I make a call on if they need something further or if it is just me.

Thanks

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

Ok JOB15, test shave today us done. Both blades really did well. It's a different feel and the blades seemed to want to stick to my skin. Removed about 3 days growth no problem and honestly after 1 pass that was probably the closest first pass I have ever had!
Now the blade I honed with 4 layers seemed to perform better but not by alot. Just all around a different experience but finally a positive one :) [emoji106] I'm gonna shave again with these blades before I make a call on if they need something further or if it is just me.

Thanks

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

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Theres a lot more to the results than just tape count...
Honing is complex ..
I was trying to help you reach the edge and if that 4th layer got the honing to the edge then it should be a better shave.

I should clarify though.. If I was honing a full hollow then I wouldn't really want to go past one layer of tape.
There are the dimensions of the blade to consider . I mostly hone quarter hollows 6/8ths and 2 layers works just fine for that ..

One thing did cross my mind.. Are the angles of the bevel gospel, so to speak. When were these angles first decided ? a long time ago I guess. Maybe pre electronic technology ?
Surely a blade honed with 10 layers of tape would have a more lasting edge?
I'm just spit balling :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Theres a lot more to the results than just tape count...
Honing is complex ..
I was trying to help you reach the edge and if that 4th layer got the honing to the edge then it should be a better shave.

I should clarify though.. If I was honing a full hollow then I wouldn't really want to go past one layer of tape.
There are the dimensions of the blade to consider . I mostly hone quarter hollows 6/8ths and 2 layers works just fine for that ..

One thing did cross my mind.. Are the angles of the bevel gospel, so to speak. When were these angles first decided ? a long time ago I guess. Maybe pre electronic technology ?
Surely a blade honed with 10 layers of tape would have a more lasting edge?
I'm just spit balling :)

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I see what you mean and they did shave but I am not sure I have the blade to face relationship found exactly. This is my first wedge shave so it was different. Definitely shaves and was comfortable just not quite like my hollows. I tried a bit of slack when stropping as you suggested and that is a first for me so I have several new variables. I thank you though for the suggestions and help got me along farther than I have been.

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