We've all read and many of us have tried using oil or glycerin makes for a finer honing experience than using water. But does anyone know why, chemically/physically speaking? Obviously not knowing or even knowing will not change the fact, but I'm curious to know.
Thanks
What does "closer honing" mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shokunin
I'd guess that oil, being more viscous moves the resulting metal particles out of the way and reduces blade contact with the hone thus acting more like a higher grit hone.
I've read numerous times something like, "using this hone with oil or glycerin will yield an even finer edge/closer hone."Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
I guess it's just like using lather with a barber's hone or after using slurry with a water hone and then going to water. You are having less contact with the hone so it may work slower but it's having less contact and thus a smoother finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shokunin
The connection between the stone (and abrasives) and the blade (steel) is buffered. This results in less contact and a less deeper cutting of the abrasive material in the steel.
Depending on the materials this can result in a finer result or more polishing of the steel...
What the main factors are in terms of a proper research cant be told in my point of view....cant remember that somebody did it till today
For your viewing pleasure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgtcTElNfF4
If you want to skip to what oil does, check around 3:20.
Granted with sharpening stones we're not looking at 2 polished metal surfaces, the pricinpal is the same even though it's a polished surface and an abrasive. The blade will actually ride atop the oil, and the abrasive won't be able to cut as deep. Thicker oil will make for a better film and less contact. Put some 80-90 on your finishing hone and you'll never manage to remove enough metal to get any work out of it.
I always heard that glycerin 'made water wetter'.
I wonder how wetness is guaged, i would have thought water would be pretty wet to start with (assuming liquid state) ☺.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
More water, makes water wetter. :beer2:Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
Surely the water would be equally wet just bigger. Whateever the water was on would be wetter thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
I have heard the term used in a way that refers to breaking the surface tension of the water to it doesn't bead, therefore making it "wetter"
I'm guessing but I would think some substances act as a surfactant and cut surface tension. Water will try to bead up on many hard polished stones, so I add a drop or two of Jet Dry to a 12 oz bottle,of honing water.Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Cheers, Steve
With a Wet Gauge. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
I just want to know if it is wetter under water if you are there when it rains?
Bob
Of course, more water means, more wet. :beer2:
OK, I got a few more questions for you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_fZocBAMI
Bob
I can relate to that. :rofl2:
The only thing that I've ever heard that made water 'wetter' was soap as it breaks the surface tension.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
If you want to have some fun. Put some water in a bowl preferably a white, clear or light colored one. Then sprinkle some ground black pepper on the water (some may sink/but most will float) then put ONE DROP of a liquid soap in the middle of the pepper and watch what happens.
I tried it with glycerin and it didn't do anything.
I think that temperature has a lot to do with it. I can go walk out on the frozen lake behind my house today and not get a drop on me. If I tried that in the summer I would be soaking wet.:hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
Thanks for the informative (and funny) posts. I didn't even think about the possibility that the 'finer' hone that comes from using glycerin or oil would actually be due to the fact that it forces the steel and stone farther apart, rather than closer together; very interesting.
As an aside relating to glycerin, in the tattoo biz we used to mix our own colors with dry pigment, listerine, alcohol, and distilled water. The 45% alcohol would disperse the pigment. I used to mix my 1/2 pound packs of red, orange, green, what have you, in half gallon jugs and fill 4oz bottles as needed.
Three drops of glycerin in a 1/2 gallon made the ink 'slick' and it would go into the skin more easily, wouldn't clump up as it would if you didn't know to add the glycerin. Twenty or thirty years ago I would have never publicly stated that 'trade secret', but now the cow is so far out of the barn there is no sense trying to close the doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzs-Lz5i108Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
On Jnats and most synthetics anything but water is not advised. Smith's honing solution is water soluble but I personally do not use it on Jnats or synthetics. To me the type of natural stone dictates the type of lubrication needed for best results. Stones such as Arkansas or Charnley Forest may benefit more from non-water lubrication, but stones like J-Nats will not mesh well with honing oils or other solutions because of absorption into the stone.
I can get perfectly smooth and keen edges off Jnats or synthetics with water, the key is to use the right amount of pressure when doing the finishing strokes.
Very true Stefan,
But I wish you'd tell those guys in Japan that! I've had to soak many a jnat in isopropyl alcohol overnight to get rid of whatever that vile smelling yellow honing oil is that they sometimes use. Fortunately it does not seem to penetrate the stone that much and usually an overnight soak does it. A wooden dais soaked with it is however, another story.
Cheers, Steve
I use water with my Arkansas bench stones too. At this juncture, I simply don't want to deal with the mess that comes with oil - I get enough of that at work. The only thing I use is a little shave lather at the tail end when I want to slick things up. Keeps everything nice and clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
That said, I think it's important to understand what the difference is between a poor lubricant like water and something a bit more viscous, like oil, glycerin, or even shave lather.
I think oil would work just as well with any stone, provided (at least with synthetics) that it isn't formulated such that oil would cause a degradation of the hone. With naturals, most* aren't porous enough for oil to seep in too deep and a good soaking can usually clean it off. But that doesn't mean that I'm about to start oiling up all my stones. Like you said, for many it's just not necessary even if it is a viable option.
I use plain water on all my synthetics, Coticules and Eschers. I use Smiths honing solution or water on my slate hones and Chinese hones and all the above plus oil on my Arkansas hones (not at the same time, lol)
I know what you mean, I am dealing with one like that, a true stinker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
On the recommendation of a friend I gave the Smith's Honing Solution a go on my Zulu. I found it added a slickness so I decided to play. Instead of using the SHS when I was ready for the last strokes I sprayed the Zulu with some Windex and found a nice slickness. My 'Theory' is that the slickness allows for less pressure while making the stroke. Just a Theory. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by rodb
You are adding surfactant to the stone and that decreases the surface tension and capillary action, which equals less pressure between the hone and the bevel. You have the right explanation there.Quote:
Originally Posted by cudarunner
Thanks Stefan, sometimes I get things right! :rofl2::roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
I figure most people have a spray bottle of glass cleaner on hand and it seemed to do the same job as the Honing Solution.
Where are you buying your Jnats from? I've had a good deal (but maybe not as much as you, who knows) pass through my hands and have never had this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Dawn dish soap will make water "wetter" it lowers the surface tension of the water. Try just one drop in your honing water sometime.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
I also add a little Ballistol to my water more often than Dawn. It does the same thing pretty much.
Slawmeister.
Probably has fish oil in it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56