Bad Grinds

I bought this T.I (La Legende) blade a while ago and then sent it off for some customisations.

Then I let it sit for a time ,not wanting to mess about with it because I knew it had some geometry issues and if im honest I didn't want to get it wet and messy :)

However recently I realised I had no experience with the old T.I steel and wanted to see how it performs. So I decided to hone it up.

It took six layers of tape to reach the edge and after setting the bevel or so I thought I realised that it would cut arm hair on one arm but when flipped and tested on the other arm it was blunt...

It took an age and a microscope to set the bevel to my liking . It reminded me of the newer C135 steel , a bit chippy but it seemed to really appreciate my Jnat and Naguras .

I'm not sure how the six layers of tape will effect things. Maybe the edge wont hold or the shave will be crap, although I think it will be an amazing shave.... I will find out later today.

Attachment 253740
Final Look pre Strop.
Attachment 253739

Wow, that is one huge grind issue. I recently bought a TI La Legende and the only real issue was that the razor was not as shave ready as I would have liked. I threw on one layer of tape and it honed up easily to where I like it to be. I was under the impression that the TI La Legende blades were carbon song C135 blades as that is the description of them where I bought mine from.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Wow, that is one huge grind issue. I recently bought a TI La Legende and the only real issue was that the razor was not as shave ready as I would have liked. I threw on one layer of tape and it honed up easily to where I like it to be. I was under the impression that the TI La Legende blades were carbon song C135 blades as that is the description of them where I bought mine from.

Bob

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Ha, I did say it was like the C135 steel, that's why..

I assumed they were old, it was probably the date 1884 that threw me off.

I do have one of the old T.I framebacks . Guess ill have to fix it up now :)

Well, it would not have been the first time a seller was off in their description of a product either. I had to check a couple of other sellers to make sure.

I am using Naniwa hones and after the 12K finisher I do 20 laps on a hard felt hanging strop sprayed with Crox. The blade seemed to like that routine.

Hope it does shave well for you in the end.

Bob

That is a lot of tape. Was that to get to the correct bevel angle?

Just out of curiosity what is the spine width and blade width, from edge to hone contact point, in mms?

Bob

Many TI that end up on my hones have bevel and grind issues. Mostly uneven bevels. Sometimes one side will hit the stones but the other side not. I've also noticed many to be ground too thick, or just not ground thin and close enough towards the edge, making in near impossible to set a bevel without several layers of tape unless you go to town for hours trying to set a bevel which eventually ends up looking the size of a highway. So why am I not surprised to read your experience with the La Legende. From my experience TI has the worst grind from all new production razors. They do take a sweet edge once dialed in but it can be a hit or miss with inconsistent grinds.

I am not surprised either that TI has issues with the grind on their razors. There are far too many comments from people that have bought these razors for it not to be a problem. I am surprise that 6 layers of tape had to be used though. IIRC that is like being out 6 degrees or so on the bevel angle.

My only experience with a new TI is the La Legende I just bought prior to Christmas. I would not say the grind was perfect as the bevel is not strictly a uniform very narrow width all along the blade. The bevel was not huge by any means and there were a couple of spots where it was wider or narrower than the rest of the bevel which I assumed was imperfect grinding. It did hone up easily enough with one layer of tape and paying attention the thicker ground spots.

Bob

The spine width seems to be 4mm and the blade width is 20mm.

I stared with 2 layers of tape and only half of the bevel was touching the 1K
4 layers of tape and I thought I was there but one side was still a way from the edge.
6 and it was all good.

I did buy a T.I previously where the grind was so thin on one part of the edge that the blade disappeared. I returned it and had a fully inspected one sent back out to me.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

That is a lot of tape. Was that to get to the correct bevel angle?

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It was to get the very edge touching the hone

Just hauled mine out and your blade's measurements are basically the same as mine. Also taking a second look at the bevels on mine, instead of going by memory, they do seem to be a tad on the wide side. One more so than the other. Looks like the spines could be a bit wider for the blade size. In any event mine does shave well enough, using 1 layer of tape honing, for me despite issues.

Bob

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Ha, I did say it was like the C135 steel, that's why..

I assumed they were old, it was probably the date 1884 that threw me off.

I do have one of the old T.I framebacks . Guess ill have to fix it up now :)

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No doubt that the Thiers Issard La Legende is made from C135. Don't understand why you would need 6 layers of tape to set the bevel on a new razor? What were the modification done? or customizations like you said in the original post?

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Originally Posted by JOB15

It was to get the very edge touching the hone

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I guess you must be trying to match the bevel angle set at the factory. Why not set the bevel with one layer of tape and cut the shoulder of the bevel back until it reaches the edge?

Try going back to one layer of tape and give this a try. Just make sure your edge of your hones are knocked off a bit. This does work with wonky blades. :tu

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...than-mile.html

I see what you are all saying but if I only used one layer of tape then the bevel would end up super wide and that still would not guarantee me reaching the edge.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I see what you are all saying but if I only used one layer of tape then the bevel would end up super wide and that still would not guarantee me reaching the edge.

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Take a black marks a lot or similar marker blacken about 1/4" from the cutting edge toward the spine then try the method on a finisher/all you'll do is wipe the black off and be able to see how wide your bevel is going to be/or at least close.

If you insist on using more tape Do Not Use More Than Three Layers as after that things get real squirrely.

I'm in 2 minds, whether or not to A. Take it to a diamond plate with 2 layers of tape and see what happens.

Or B: Leave it be , it looks pretty and has a nice edge , I think.

I've only ever seen similar problems with vintage blades suffering with excessive hone ware and from experience trying to correct problems can lead to disasters .

Flirting around the problem normally is the better solution in my experience ..

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Originally Posted by Martin103

No doubt that the Thiers Issard La Legende is made from C135. Don't understand why you would need 6 layers of tape to set the bevel on a new razor? What were the modification done? or customizations like you said in the original post?

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New scales and those tang inlay pieces .. I assume it requires 6 layers of tape because the grind is crazy, hence the spine has to be jacked up to get the edge on the hone..

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I guess you must be trying to match the bevel angle set at the factory. Why not set the bevel with one layer of tape and cut the shoulder of the bevel back until it reaches the edge?

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I think I understand you...

A close up ..

Attachment 253766

It looks like it needs a little bit of a heel reduction/reshape

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Originally Posted by RezDog

It looks like it needs a little bit of a heel reduction/reshape

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I believe my friend is talking about the area in the red circle. It may be keeping your edge off of the hones. :shrug:

Attachment 253768

Interesting.
That ware on the heel was done by Max . I guess he knocked some metal off that area to even the blade out.
It was a serious right angle with a sharp corner but I just bread knifed the very tip because I could see that turning into a spur down the road.

Maybe I should go back to one layer of tape and ink the bevel see if that corner touches

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Interesting.

Maybe I should go back to one layer of tape and ink the bevel see if that corner touches

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Uhh, yea that thought came to mind a few posts ago :hmmm:

No matter what, anything over three layers of tape is too much. Edge correction and initial bevel set on new razors (even some "restored" razors) can sometimes need more experienced hands. Fact is, you don't always end up with a even bevel or small bevel. If you aren't getting to the edge, you aren't spending enough time on bevel setting stones. More experienced honers would have gone to a worn dmt to get the bevel where it needs to be, then go to a normal bevel setting stone...changing the outer layer of tape regularly.

Just to add to the confusion, is it possible that you are using too much pressure/torque on the blade bending the blade so the edge lifts off the hone? Could be another reason you are not reaching the edge but honing the shoulder of the bevel.

Bob

I've had some not so well ground "new" TI's (this was a few years ago). Took some work to get a good bevel, but once that was done, they shaved great. A nice stiff, full hollow, which I like. Or maybe liked at the time? It's been a while. Either way, I think the $125 AOS TI's in plain black scales were the best bang for the buck (at that time), if you could get it honed (yourself or at a reasonable price).

Side question - What did that razor look like originally? Scales/tang, I mean.

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Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

No matter what, anything over three layers of tape is too much. Edge correction and initial bevel set on new razors (even some "restored" razors) can sometimes need more experienced hands. Fact is, you don't always end up with a even bevel or small bevel. If you aren't getting to the edge, you aren't spending enough time on bevel setting stones. More experienced honers would have gone to a worn dmt to get the bevel where it needs to be, then go to a normal bevel setting stone...changing the outer layer of tape regularly.

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The bevel was set and edge correction performed by Max- Honemeister , so it never occurred to me to take it to a diamond plate. I just wanted to go over his work.
What you say about spending time on stones to get to the edge doesn't ring true for me , even though it makes sense ,because recently I spent an age on a vintage blade and the bevel got fatter and fatter without ever reaching the edge?

Bobh: Next to no pressure..

holli4: The scales were cream junk plastic and the tang pieces fell off when I inspected them :o

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

Uhh, yea that thought came to mind a few posts ago :hmmm:

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I will ink it up and try several things..

What if it shaves perfectly well with 6 layers? if it aint broke? ok we know its broke

I really, really, REALLY doubt Max used 6 layers of tape. Max is a pro, we have many here...sevaral have already chimed in on your thread. Only one honemeister though, thats Lynn.

Bevels naturally get wider as it reaches the edge. Thats the geometry of honing.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Bobh: Next to no pressure

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Originally Posted by BobH

Just to add to the confusion, is it possible that you are using too much pressure/torque on the blade bending the blade so the edge lifts off the hone? Could be another reason you are not reaching the edge but honing the shoulder of the bevel.

Bob

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Bob, I was thinking the opposite that no tourqe was used, as JOB15 was using no pressure maybe he wasnt tourqing so the edge come in contact with the hone.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Bob, I was thinking the opposite that no tourqe was used, as JOB15 was using no pressure maybe he wasnt tourqing so the edge come in contact with the hone.

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I guess that could be too. I am still baffled about using 6 layers of tape considering I have the same model with the, apparently, similar/same blade size and spine with. I only used 1 layer of tape for a decent. to me, result. One of life's mysteries I suppose.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I guess that could be too. I am still baffled about using 6 layers of tape considering I have the same model with the, apparently, similar/same blade size and spine with. I only used 1 layer of tape for a decent. to me, result. One of life's mysteries I suppose.

Bob

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Yep 6 layers seems too much, 9 times out of 10 on a new razor if the edge is not making contact a simple torquing towards the edge will sort this out. I believe some people get people get pressure and tourqe mixed up, they are not the same.

You are honing on the stabilizer (Blue Circle) and possibly way up on the tang, (Blue Arrow) that might be the photo, though.

By putting so much tape on it, you are lifting the spine and increasing the angle off the stabilizer, though you still may be dragging on it or have ground enough away to get the edge on the hone.

Now the heel need to be corrected and re shaped, (similar to the Red Circle). Reshaping the heel will move the corner of the edge, well in front of the stabilizer, the razor will now sit flat on the stone and could hone easily, with one layer of tape.

It is an easy fix. TI’s are hard, but not that hard.

The first photo did not show the heel, you can see the wear on the stabilizer, if you enlarge the photo, but I thought it was the lighting. The second photo shows it clearly.


Attachment 253790

I spoke to Max today.

He remembers the blade and did not hone it to shave ready , he just put a new bevel their with a DMT plate and corrected it by going into the heel.

So then I came alone maybe a year later thinking it was honed, used 2 layers of tape ,ink , no pressure and couldn't reach the edge.
Bare in mind I was aware of some grind issues, what exactly I couldn't recall.

Today I added 2 layers of tape and took it to a worn DMT plate , reset the bevel, then some work on the 1k, 2 layers all the way and bingo , its good :)

I took it through the Naguras and had a shave with it, just. No where near good enough but that because of all the work I did in a short time. Next time i'll nail it.

The blade also had the last laugh by cutting me with the tip. I cant recall my last cut as it was so long ago.
Either way its all good now , thanks for your input guys..
Attachment 253794

[QUOTE=Euclid440;1697495]You are honing on the stabilizer (Blue Circle) and possibly way up on the tang, (Blue Arrow) that might be the photo, though.

By putting so much tape on it, you are lifting the spine and increasing the angle off the stabilizer, though you still may be dragging on it or have ground enough away to get the edge on the hone.

Now the heel need to be corrected and re shaped, (similar to the Red Circle). Reshaping the heel will move the corner of the edge, well in front of the stabilizer, the razor will now sit flat on the stone and could hone easily, with one layer of tape.

It is an easy fix. TI

Nice catch but im not that bad a honer as to hone the tang lol ..cheers

I wouldn't use any tape & put it back the way TI ground it.

Slawman