My first try at setting the bevel

Story behind this SR:
BeeJay honed me two razors and gave me one to try out myself.

Some pics of the work done:

1) Unpinning failing as usual. This is the only picture I have where you can see how the blade was:
Attachment 254674

BJ said:

Quote:

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Sometimes you can fix celluloid with acetone.
Acetone will actually melt celluloid. The idea is to use as little as possible so that the scales don't fully melt. Clean the area very well and put just a bit of acetone on either side of the crack with a Qtip. When the celluloid starts to soften, hold both pieces together and they will eventually harden as one piece.
It's a very strong repair if you get it right. The trick is to use the right amount of acetone.

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I decided to leave that work for later.

2) Evaporust
I started using this product on every SR which has some rust on it.
Here's after 4-5hs:
Attachment 254675

The blade looks dark, but it goes away with some sanding

3) After 180-400-600 Sanding:
Attachment 254676

4) I taped the blade and this is what they look before:
Attachment 254677
Attachment 254678

5) After some X strokes
Attachment 254679
Attachment 254680


I doubt you can say much about the pictures but I would like to ask some general questions:

1) At the beginning, the toe and the heel were not getting a bevel at all. I guess that's my X stroke technique fault. The last strokes I put some pressure on the toe and on the heel and it got a bit better. Is that ok?

2) Does the "height" of the bevel matter? I noticed that the one I did is thinner than most of the SR pro honed I have. I was going to keep going but decided to stop and ask first.

3) The bevel I have is already shaving hair from my arm. Is that enough to stop?

4) I need to get a zoom/magnifying glass. Any recommendation?

5) What do you think it should be my next step? My stones are: 200/1k Norton, 4k/8k Norton, 12k Naniwa


Thanks for reading!

1 - Pressure is OK at bevel set. You kind of need it to abrade more steel early on anyway. Make sure you slowly ease up on pressure, so that your final strokes are like finishing strokes. This will make the stria less shallow, and easier to remove on the next hone in the progression.

2 - If by height, you mean from the shoulder of the bevel to the extreme edge/end - no. How high this is depends on 2 things, angle of honing and thickness of the blade. Thinner grinds will have a shorter bevel.

3 - might be, might not be. Best way I've found to tell is to hold the razor sharp edge up and look straight down at it with magnification. When you can no longer see where the bevels meet because it's that thin, then you're done setting the bevel.

5 - if you're done with the 1k, then it'll be time to move on to the 4k. Stay there until the blade stops improving then move on to the 8. Same thing here, but before moving on to the 12K, strop and shave. You should be able to get a comfortable shave off the 8K. If that edge doesn't shave, reassess the edge and drop back. Probably to the 1K because more than likely it'll be a bevel not quite fully set issue.

As far as magnification here's the most common recommendations:

https://www.amazon.com/HTS-201X3-Whi...lers+loupe+30x

https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Pocke...jewelers+loupe

https://www.amazon.com/Carson-60X-10...jewelers+loupe

I've got a 30x and a carson 60-100x, but I find myself using the fixed 30x more these days. It's just faster and easier to pull things into focus.

I've been in contact with the OP from before this was posted via email.

I'm interested in what others have to say. I think for just beginning with cleaning up razors he's doing alright.

I would digress or question this:

2 - If by height, you mean from the shoulder of the bevel to the extreme edge/end - no. How high this is depends on 2 things, angle of honing and thickness of the blade. Thinner grinds will have a shorter bevel.

As I just honed a 8/8+ quarter grind W&B that took a nice and even edge about 1/32" wide with only one layer of tape on the spine.

I've honed 5/8 razors that took a lot wider edge. I believe that it depends more on how the razor was ground.

My Great Grandfather's 5/8+ bevel looks like a snakes track/wide in places and narrow in others. OH! Don't try to tell me that it's 'MY' honing as Glen gets the same results!

But that's just my thoughts.

When referencing thickness, I don't mean spine to edge, I mean from one side of the blade to the other. Or the grind, as you put it Cuda. A wedge for example, will have a taller bevel than a quarter hollow, and so on down the line.

But how tall the bevel is, or whether it's perfectly uniform all the way down or 'snake tracks' won't effect the shave if honed adequately sharp to perform the task at hand. I'm assuming your great grandfather's razor shaves fine?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

When referencing thickness, I don't mean spine to edge, I mean from one side of the blade to the other. Or the grind, as you put it Cuda. A wedge for example, will have a taller bevel than a quarter hollow, and so on down the line.

But how tall the bevel is, or whether it's perfectly uniform all the way down or 'snake tracks' won't effect the shave if honed adequately sharp to perform the task at hand. I'm assuming your great grandfather's razor shaves fine?

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I believe that we may be talking apples and oranges here.

When I comment on the 'width' of a bevel I'm referring to how wide it is from the edge toward the spine.

Now I will fully disagree with your presumption that the width of the edge will vary due to as you said

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

A wedge for example, will have a taller bevel than a quarter hollow, and so on down the line.

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Here's pictures of three different razors to show what I refer to as the 'width' of the bevel. They are all very narrow. :hmmm:

Please tell me which razor is what size and what grind.

Attachment 254696

Attachment 254697

Attachment 254698

I stand corrected. The grind in terms of half/quarter/full hollow is less important because they all get fairly thin toward cutting edge. :bow

At least not until they're worn down to the spot the blade begins to get wider. I have 2 that fit that description, and now that the hone is having to chew through thicker metal to form the cutting edge the bevel is nearly as thick as my wedge - which has the most monstrous bevel I've seen to date, and it isn't even fully set yet. Still a work in progress.

I'm going to stop commenting as I still believe that we are talking Oranges VS Apples and this isn't helping the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

I'm going to stop commenting as I still believe that we are talking Oranges VS Apples and this isn't helping the OP.

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Always goes in the honing forum, eh Roy?
Let's resurrect the JA Norton thread?
Look at some REAL bevel-setting threads/videos from some long-established members here!

'Who ya gonna call?'

It's all up in the search box. Definitely not from inexperience and experimentation. JMHO

1) At the beginning, the toe and the heel were not getting a bevel at all. I guess that's my X stroke technique fault. The last strokes I put some pressure on the toe and on the heel and it got a bit better. Is that ok?

2) Does the "height" of the bevel matter? I noticed that the one I did is thinner than most of the SR pro honed I have. I was going to keep going but decided to stop and ask first.

3) The bevel I have is already shaving hair from my arm. Is that enough to stop?

4) I need to get a zoom/magnifying glass. Any recommendation?

5) What do you think it should be my next step? My stones are: 200/1k Norton, 4k/8k Norton, 12k Naniwa



1. No, there are times when you might add some pressure, but the razor has a smiling edge and needs a rolling, X stroke. Photo’s 4 & 5, shows the edge is not flat on the stone, because of the slight smile.

Ink the bevel and perfect your rolling X stroke, until you are consistently removing ink. You want to look at the edge with magnification to ensure you are honing to the edge, and that the bevels are meeting fully, from heel to toe.

Look straight down on the edge, if you see shinny reflections, the bevel is not fully set.

Here is a great video of the subtitles of the Rolling X. by Charlie Lewis, (Honing a Smiling Blade). Study that video and note, how little he lifts the blade.

You can add some pressure or torque to get the heel or toe but more pressure is not the answer for a smiling blade.

2. No. The width of the blade and thickness of the spine will dictate the Bevel angle and width of the bevel. You can adjust the bevel width somewhat with tape, but it is pretty much dictated by the razor an it’s condition. An excessively worn spine will have a wider bevel than the same razor without wear.


3. No. The bevel does not look fully set, especially at the toe and heel.
Look straight down on the edge, with magnification.


4. There is a good recent thread on magnifiers. You can get a good 60X lighted loupe for as little as $2. The 3 listed in post 2 are good.


5. Get magnification, you have a good progression. Get with a local mentor to get some hands-on training and master your stones. Do not use the 220 stone.

It is much easier to hone a razor with scales, and you will probably bugger the edge, when you apply the new scales.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

I'm going to stop commenting as I still believe that we are talking Oranges VS Apples and this isn't helping the OP.

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I might be lost in translation but I didn't get a thing about your discussion :)
My point was related to the size of the bevel.

To the OP, if you're so inclined, you can easily measure the bevel angle. Search Google for the bevel angle calculator, it's an excel sheet with a formula. The width won't matter, as long as you're hitting the right angle zone.

Ink the bevel, as Euclid suggested, that will help you a lot.

Magnification... yes, you can get a cheap magnifier and it will help some. They are junk though. Ever since I got a 10x Bausch&Lomb loupe, with no lighting or anything, I never reach for anything else. It costs more, but it's well worth the price. Note that those numbers advertised on cheap magnifiers (30x, 60x etc..) are a lie. 10x B&L will tell you everything. The next thing you might want after that is a $500 microscope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmsessa

I might be lost in translation but I didn't get a thing about your discussion :)
My point was related to the size of the bevel.

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Like Cuda said, off topic and not a helpful tangent.

Height of the bevel is determined by blade geometry - set at the factory, and generally not something you'll change. As long as you aren't using so much pressure that you flex the blade, the height of the bevel is what it is.

[QUOTE=cmsessa;1700920]Story behind this SR:
BeeJay honed me two razors and gave me one to try out myself.

Some pics of the work done:
1) Unpinning failing as usual. This is the only picture I have where you can see how the blade was:

Hello cmessa
Good information regarding bevel setting has been given, this is directed at pin removal. If you do not already use one you may want to invest in a Jeweler’s Anvil or Watchmakers Anvil (Google it). Lay the pin on top of the correct size hole when tapping out. Go with light taps. Many have cracked scales before so be glad they were not ivory. Hope this may help some.
MIke

http://i.imgur.com/32B5VKE.jpg

Yes, regarding the unpinning, supporting the scales with something like a Jewelers anvil is good advice, but do not drive the pin all the way, through the scales. Cut or drill the head off one side of the pin, then lift the scale off the pin gently.

If you try to drive it through both scales and the pin is bent, just slightly or has a burr you will blow out the tip of the scale.

That type/style of scale is notorious for off gassing and can become very brittle, that may be the cause of the blade turning black and rusted in photo 1, where it would have sat in the scales.

You might also have trouble with it holding an edge, cell rot attacks the thinnest steel first, the edge. If you experience chipping you will have to remove metal, until you reach solid steel.

It does appear to have cleaned up nicely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmsessa

Attachment 254680


I doubt you can say much about the pictures but I would like to ask some general questions:

1) At the beginning, the toe and the heel were not getting a bevel at all. I guess that's my X stroke technique fault. The last strokes I put some pressure on the toe and on the heel and it got a bit better. Is that ok?

2) Does the "height" of the bevel matter? I noticed that the one I did is thinner than most of the SR pro honed I have. I was going to keep going but decided to stop and ask first.

3) The bevel I have is already shaving hair from my arm. Is that enough to stop?

4) I need to get a zoom/magnifying glass. Any recommendation?

5) What do you think it should be my next step? My stones are: 200/1k Norton, 4k/8k Norton, 12k Naniwa


Thanks for reading!

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First, you would be much better off NOT honing the razor at all until you re-scale the blade. This is because a) it is easier to hone the razor with the scales in place and b) the task of re-scaling the razor is more dangerous for you if you are doing it with a sharp edge.

Second, the last photo shows that the tape has been cut through on the tang. There is no reason for the tang to ever make contact with the hone and doing so lifts the heel off of the stone, preventing it from being honed. The end of the heel should be as far as the razor should extend onto the hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

do not drive the pin all the way, through the scales. Cut or drill the head off one side of the pin, then lift the scale off the pin gently.

If you try to drive it through both scales and the pin is bent, just slightly or has a burr you will blow out the tip of the scale.

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Exactly my advice; before working this way I also cracked some scales, and since cutting the pin after driven the pin through the first scale, problems were gone.

Hey cmsessa. The size of the bevel doesn't matter as long as the edge is fully set. A small even bevel is much better looking though.

You want to be sure that the bevel is fully set from heel to toe. Do some test to make sure that there are no spots that need more attention. I like to use the TNT for this but things like magnification and other test will also work.

I use a cheap jewelers loupe that I got from eBay. Anything in the 30x-60x range will work.

When you are confident that the bevel is fully set, do some light strokes on the 1k to lighten up the 1k scratches. This will reruce the amount of work that you have to do on the on the next stone.

After the 1k go to the 4K until all of the 1k scratches are gone.

Let me know if you want to get together sometime. I can show you this stuff a lot easier in person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeJay

Let me know if you want to get together sometime. I can show you this stuff a lot easier in person.

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BJ, yes plz but first I want to try to finish this razor on my own. I would like to get together with this one "finished" and a ready to hone I can do with you!

Thanks again for the offer.

Getting help in person is extremely helpful. Direct and immediate feedback goes way beyond what you can learn in a video.

The acetone worked great!

I cleaned the scales and I got some acetone 99.5%.
Instead of using a qtip I used a syringe. I placed a couple of drops and hold it together for a couple of seconds.
Great results:
Attachment 255144
Attachment 255145

I already pinned the razor:
Attachment 255146
Attachment 255147

Update on my honing:

I started to look at the pictures I am about to post and I already detecting mistakes myself.
I basically honed without thinking :(

Pictures before I started honing:

Attachment 255148
Attachment 255149
Look at that! A bubble in my tape! How could I missed that...

I am a bit ashamed about the next ones:
Attachment 255150
Attachment 255151

On this side, the bevel looks pretty decent. The heel is still a problem.
Look at the top right. I broke the tape! I took that picture without even noticing it!

Attachment 255152
Attachment 255153
Bubble still there :(
This side I had a big issue with the toe. It didn't get a bevel at all. Now looking at the pictures I would guess the problem was the broken tape!

Pictures after taking out the tape:
Attachment 255154
Attachment 255155
Wow is that spine wear?!

If using tape, I like 2 layers. When I see the top layer broken through, it's time to change tape. Usually I can peel off the top layer without disturbing the bottom, but if I have to change both it's no real loss. Change it early and often.

You can usually start to feel little bits of tape coming off into the hone before it wears through. It should actually be changed before that happens but if you go too far that's one way to tell. Good job on the scale repair. I can't even see where the crack was in the picture.

I used to pooh-pooh the notion that the more expensive 3M 700 tape was superior to the common made by the C. H. Ina Company electrical tape found most everywhere, once I tried the 3M I was Sold! It doesn't wear or shred like the cheapo brands. I gave the tape rolls that I had on hand to friend to use in their non razor projects.

While I Usually only use a single layer of tape (with the exceptions of heavy grinds) I did initially use two layers on your great grandfather's razor due to the heavy rust on the edge. However once I got to clean steel I set the bevel with a single layer of tape and then kept the single layer all the way to finishing.

With that said, you might try two layers and see how it goes. I would recommend that you use a Marks-a-Lot and color the edge so you can see where you and and are not getting the edge to the hone.

I also recommend that if things aren't coming along as you'd like to just clean and dry the razor, put it aside for a day or so and then have another go with it.

Have Fun! :tu

Thanks for the comments.

I will try with two layers again today and see what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmsessa

Thanks for the comments.

I will try with two layers again today and see what happens.

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Don't forget to color the edge so you can see where you are at! :tu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeJay

You can usually start to feel little bits of tape coming off into the hone before it wears through. It should actually be changed before that happens but if you go too far that's one way to tell. Good job on the scale repair. I can't even see where the crack was in the picture.

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Good point. The only time I've really used tape I was also testing out a Naniwa 800 grit for bevel setting. So of course it ate through with a quickness and by the time I started to feel the tape bits it was already through the top layer. I'm sure most 1Ks are a little more forgiving...but after burning through a couple pieces I started to change more often.

Cuda - I never would've considered that tape brand would make that much a difference. Good to know, maybe I'll keep an eye out for the good 3M stuff and save my cheapo auto store tape for auto work. Chances are if I'm using electrical tape instead of the good heat shrink crimps it's not on a circuit that'll burn the car down anyway, so I can use the cheap stuff there. :beer2:

I picked mine up on Amazon and actually as an 'add on' as it was way cheaper that way.

I don't know if it's still listed that way or not but you might want to check it out.

OH! You should keep it indoors as the extremes of hot and cold mess with electrical tape whether it's quality 3M or the Made by the C. H. Ina Company. :tu

I hate cheep electrical tape! I quit using it years ago for electrical or antenna work. I only use scotch super 88. It a touch thicker. Much better tape than the cheep stuff.

I always use the 3m Super 33 for honing. It seems to be more wear resistant then all the others I've tried. Whatever you decide to go with, it's best to stick with the same one. That way you know it will work for light touch ups.

Scotch (3M) Super 88 here, too. It's a bit thicker and is also used by a certain cantankerous mountain man who lives up in the north woods. Right, Roy? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

I hate cheep electrical tape! I quit using it years ago for electrical or antenna work. I only use scotch super 88. It a touch thicker. Much better tape than the cheep stuff.

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Hehe, I was kidding about using it for actual electrical work. I like the crimps that have built in heat shrink tubing. Cleaner, neater, more permanent everything proof seal. I only use tape in a pinch, or as a means to keep wires tucked inside those black plastic tubes with a slit down the side for keeping wires in order. Guess it's one of those, 'You know you've been working on cars too long when..." affairs.

Two layer tape + red marker ready to hone!
Attachment 255313
Attachment 255309

After some x-strokes to check how to marker paint look
Attachment 255308
Attachment 255310

After several x-strokes:
Attachment 255311
Attachment 255312

First and foremost; End your tape at the stabilizer instead of allowing it to go on down the tang.

Also, give this a try:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...than-mile.html

I did a couple of strokes more.
I think this side is kind of finished:
Attachment 255315

On This side, getting a bevel on the toe is driving me crazy!
Attachment 255316

Roy: I will check your link now

Nice link Roy. If i continue to have an issue with the Boker im working on, im going to give this 1" line and rolling x stroke a try.

Update:

Yesterday after talking a bit with Roy I figured out certain things I was not doing correctly:
- Pressure. I should have put more pressure on the toe.
- I wasn't focus in parts of the bevel which require more attention

After some video watching I came back home today and finished the whole process.
My steps this night:

1) With two layers of tape I started on the 1k focusing on the toe. After I got to what I considered a more equal bevel, I did 10-20 strokes on the 1k.

2) Since the tape was a bit worn out, I changed it. In the process, the SR slip and I cut myself :tameshigiri:
1,2,3,4...10. Cool, they are all there, let's keep going!

3) I moved to 4k. Did a couple of passes. When using the magnifier I noticed the heel was kind of dull. I applied some pressure to the heel and did a couple of more passes.

4) Moved to 8k. Not sure what needs to happen to go from 4k to 8k but I felt that it was almost ready.

5) 50 lapping strokes

Here's how it looks in the end:

Attachment 255380
Attachment 255381

I did a shave test and it felt much better than expected.

I will return this razor to BJ and see what he thinks about it :)

Thanks for reading!

[QUOTE=MODINE;1701192]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmsessa

Story behind this SR:
BeeJay honed me two razors and gave me one to try out myself.

Some pics of the work done:
1) Unpinning failing as usual. This is the only picture I have where you can see how the blade was:

Hello cmessa
Good information regarding bevel setting has been given, this is directed at pin removal. If you do not already use one you may want to invest in a Jeweler’s Anvil or Watchmakers Anvil (Google it). Lay the pin on top of the correct size hole when tapping out. Go with light taps. Many have cracked scales before so be glad they were not ivory. Hope this may help some.
MIke

http://i.imgur.com/32B5VKE.jpg

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Use the ball pein of your light hammer to do mushroom the pin heads.