Question about honing with natural stones

Hi guys, new to the forum, have a few questions about honing using natural stones. I already had soft, hard, and surgical black Arkansas stones that I use knife honing. I picked up a translucent stone to complete my set a few weeks ago after I got a razor for Christmas. The razor in question is the infamous gold dollar. I have since picked up a decent razor for shaving, but am practicing honing with the gold dollar. I also have a pocket microscope, but I don't have a jig set up, so no pictures yet.

After reading about the gold dollar on here and its questionable quality, also seeing the magnified picture of the edge on it out of the box, I decided to reset the bevel and take it through the stones to clean it up.

I set the bevel on the soft Arkansas, did 20-30 x-strokes (both sides) on the hard Arkansas using only the weight of the razor, then went to the surgical black to finish. It seemed no matter how many strokes I did, I couldn't get out the marks from the hard Arkansas. After multiple times on the black stone, I decided to try some extra pressure. I know that goes against advice, but I figured its a gold dollar, and if it messed it up, I could go back to square one and get back to where I was without much work. I did two medium-hard pressure strokes and looked at the edge. It looked like either the edge had folded over, or it hadn't quite contacted the entire edge after two strokes. Figuring I was already started, I decided to finish and completed 10 firm pressure strokes on both sides with the black stone. When I looked at the edge, I was surprised to find it was polished well, the marks from the hard stone were gone, and the edge looked better than I had managed previously. I completed honing with 10 light x-strokes on each side on the black stone, and 10 light x-strokes on the translucent. Its the best edge I have achieved so far, and I have had no issues shaving with edges I have achieved previously.

Is it normal for natural stones to need more pressure on the finishing stones? I'm wondering if I got lucky or if it is a technique I can utilize in the future.

Always keep in mind that every razor is approached differently, an individual assessment is done on each. Your next razor or even refreshing the ones you have will be different. Having a progression that worked for you on this razor is a good thing. Your next razor or refresh may not need this total progression.

Evaluate your next razor, before putting it to stone. Approach that razor based on "it's" needs.
Your next refresh on the razor your happy with, would start with the finisher that gave you good results on that razor. A "few" light passes then assess the result after stropping.

Are you using water or oil? Blacks and trannies will remove some metal with no liquid but not for very long. They can clog up with swarf and then become less effective.

You set a bevel on a factory gold dollar with a soft arkansas? When did you start setting it at Christmas? :)

I find arkansas were very slow. Even the soft and 20-30 x strokes on the hard wouldn't be enough for me. When Arkansas honing even the finishing stage can be hundreds of strokes long.

I would say keep at it a bit longer. Do more strokes and make sure the bevel is set well.

I've set many bevel on GD out of the box with a diamond plate. Can't imagine using a soft arkansas to do that unless the bevel had been set previously by someone.

By the way congrats on the successful shave. It can only get better with practice.

Arkansas stones are known to need more pressure to work effectively. Trying to use the same pressure on other finisher would most likely results in a poor edge. This has been true in my limited experience.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Are you using water or oil? Blacks and trannies will remove some metal with no liquid but not for very long. They can clog up with swarf and then become less effective.

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Sorry, forgot to mention that, using Nortons honing oil

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

You set a bevel on a factory gold dollar with a soft arkansas? When did you start setting it at Christmas? :)

I find arkansas were very slow. Even the soft and 20-30 x strokes on the hard wouldn't be enough for me. When Arkansas honing even the finishing stage can be hundreds of strokes long.

I would say keep at it a bit longer. Do more strokes and make sure the bevel is set well.

I've set many bevel on GD out of the box with a diamond plate. Can't imagine using a soft arkansas to do that unless the bevel had been set previously by someone.

By the way congrats on the successful shave. It can only get better with practice.

Arkansas stones are known to need more pressure to work effectively. Trying to use the same pressure on other finisher would most likely results in a poor edge. This has been true in my limited experience.

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I used one of the techniques in Lynns video, using circular motions on the soft Arkansas and a fair amount of pressure. It created a significant amount of swarf, and actually didn't take too long. I may have got a razor that is on the better end of their manufacturing tolerance though.

I appreciate the info on finishing on the Arkansas stones, i have been looking for that, but everything I've read has been about synthetics, and in those cases all advice has been that hundreds of strokes will result in over honing or is completely unnecessary. I will up my stroke count on the finishers significantly.

So, first with naturals, they are all different and will perform differently, with Arks you do need more pressure than synthetic stones, ease off on pressure for your finish strokes.

Honing Gold Dollars, typically they are not ground well and quite a bit of steel needs removing. The steel is very hard and using a diamond plate to re grind the bevel angle is normal.

I too am curious that you set the bevel in 20-30 laps on a new Gold Dollar with a Soft Ark, unless it had been honed?

Make sure you are honing to the edge, ink the bevel and do a couple laps on the Translucent, and see if you are removing ink all the way to the edge. If you are, you are very lucky.

There is much written on honing with Arks, hard fine arks can be improved by lapping and burnishing the stone face. Check the Hones forum.

Smith’s Honing Solution and or Ballistol and water works well on Arks, and washes off with water.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I too am curious that you set the bevel in 20-30 laps on a new Gold Dollar with a Soft Ark, unless it had been honed?

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I read it that way at first too. Re-reading it, It looks like he set the bevel and then did 20-30 laps on the hard.

Im sorry, there is a misunderstanding here, i did not set the bevel with 20-30 strokes, that is what i did on the hard stone. I don't know how many strokes i used on the soft stone, but that is what i set the bevel on.

I will try to do the magic marker test this week some time, just have to make some time in the evening.

One question about the gold dollar, is it supposed to have a slight smile? I'm wondering if that's normal or if they really just don't care what their razors look like in that regard.

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Originally Posted by TheSatch

Im sorry, there is a misunderstanding here, i did not set the bevel with 20-30 strokes, that is what i did on the hard stone. I don't know how many strokes i used on the soft stone, but that is what i set the bevel on.

I will try to do the magic marker test this week some time, just have to make some time in the evening.

One question about the gold dollar, is it supposed to have a slight smile? I'm wondering if that's normal or if they really just don't care what their razors look like in that regard.

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Yes most have a slight smile requiring a skewed x stroke or rolling x.

Yes, the grinds are wonky, the stabilizers too thick, as are the spines. They are just cranked out razors. The steel is good though and with some work they can be made to shave, then you just have to, deal with the clunky scales.

I don’t think the smiles are intentional, you can grid them flat or as said keep the smile and use a rolling X stroke.

There are folks making these repairs and reselling them honed/ shave ready. Did you buy one of these or a new in the box one?

Post a photo of the razor.

The razor was gifted to me new in box. Will post a photo tonight, does this forum require outside image hosting or can i post photos directly to the site?

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Originally Posted by kelbro

trannies will remove some metal with no liquid but not for very long.

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Ummm, let's not call them that please.

We have enough trouble with BBWs!

You can post direct, 3rd icon from the left on the Quick Reply tool bar.

Cool, sometimes you get lucky, I have honed some that were fairly well ground, but it is rare.

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Originally Posted by TheSatch

Figuring I was already started, I decided to finish and completed 10 firm pressure strokes on both sides with the black stone. When I looked at the edge, I was surprised to find it was polished well, the marks from the hard stone were gone, and the edge looked better than I had managed previously. I completed honing with 10 light x-strokes on each side on the black stone, and 10 light x-strokes on the translucent. Its the best edge I have achieved so far, and I have had no issues shaving with edges I have achieved previously.

Is it normal for natural stones to need more pressure on the finishing stones? I'm wondering if I got lucky or if it is a technique I can utilize in the future.

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Your numbers are quite surprising. In general, whenever an Arkansas hone is involved the required number of strokes goes up about ten-fold in comparison to synthetics.

There's a possibility is a terrible edge, but i am able to shave with it. I'm new to honing razors, once i can take edge pictures i will post them as well.

I am wondering if since I am relatively young and my skin is still fairly tight, could that be covering the shortfalls of a poorly honed edge?

I am constantly amazed by edges of razors, folks send me, that they claim are shaving on.

But then, I recall guys shaving with old, scummy, throw away cartridge razors at the gym.

You might want to send a razor out for honing, so that you have a baseline, of what a straight razor should shave like.

My other razor is one i picked up in the classifieds here from gugi. He honed and stropped it before shipping so it was shave ready when it arrived, and it wasn't quite as smooth as the gold dollar is currently. Would you consider that a professional level hone?

As promised, a picture of the razor in question:
Attachment 255876

I did manage to get a picture through my pocket microscope, quality isn't great, but here it is:
Attachment 255877

The bright dots in the bottom third of the photo are honing fluid.

Note: this blade has not been stropped since sharpening

Just by looking at the white along the edge in that photo.. it looks rough.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Just by looking at the white along the edge in that photo.. it looks rough.

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I looked at it again, those are much smaller beads of oil. I will strop it and take another picture.

It is rough, how long have you shaved with a straight? Unless you have the skills it hard for you to know what a good edge is in the beginning, also I don't think young hurts but I,m sure it probably doesn't help either it's in the hands of the guy weilding the razor. I don't know Gugi,s edge, but we have some guys here who can hone, good luck. Tc

As a matter of a fact we have a guy in Washington if your near him in the southeast he could evaluate your edges for you

Here it is after stropping, I tried to get the same section of the blade. Not sure why the lighting is completely different.
Attachment 255879

I do agree though, I think I have some more work to do

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

It is rough, how long have you shaved with a straight? Unless you have the skills it hard for you to know what a good edge is in the beginning, also I don't think young hurts but I,m sure it probably doesn't help either it's in the hands of the guy weilding the razor. I don't know Gugi,s edge, but we have some guys here who can hone, good luck. Tc

As a matter of a fact we have a guy in Washington if your near him in the southeast he could evaluate your edges for you

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I'm in western Washington, Everett specifically. Southeast is hours away. Only been shaving with a straight for a month, so you are correct, my opinion is suspect.

So I went back to the finishing stones and did the marker test, the honing is definitely reaching the edge along the entire length. I did 100 laps on the surgical black using very light pressure, 40 laps on the surgical black using the weight of the razor, then 100 laps on the translucent using the weight of the razor. Attached is a picture of either side. I'm not sure what the rough area is back from the bevel on one of the pics, but am I correct in assuming that it shouldn't really affect the shave?

Attachment 255888

Attachment 255889

Why is the edge bright in the second picture? Wire edge?

Off to try the shave test, will report back after.

Note about Gugi's honing: His edge puts mine to shame under the scope, he did an excellent job, I hope I didn't portray it otherwise.

It is not unusual for a new shaver to damage an edge with the first stropping. The edge that Gugi put on the other razor, may have been wiped with the first stropping. Stropping can take some time perfect, and as much as a year to get to a point where you are, ”consistently” improving an edge by stropping.

The Ark bevel needs a lot of refining. It is difficult to tell from the photo, but my guess, based on your post, and that the edge is not straight, is that the bevel, was not fully set on the lowest grit stone. That is what you are seeing at the edge.

While you can set a bevel, make a razor shave ready and maintain it with Arks exclusively, it is much easier to learn to hone on synthetic stones.

Once you have mastered honing and understand the process, what you are seeing and how to overcome issues, then switch to Naturals. You can also hone on synthetics and finish on Naturals.
It is not unusual for a new shaver to damage an edge with the first stropping. The edge that Gugi put on the other razor, may have been wiped with the first stropping. Stropping can take some time perfect, and as much as a year to get to a point where you are, ”consistently” improving an edge by stropping.

The Ark bevel needs a lot of refining. It is difficult to tell from the photo, but my guess, based on your post, and that the edge is not straight, is that the bevel, was not fully set on the lowest grit stone. That is what you are seeing at the edge.

While you can set a bevel, make a razor shave ready and maintain it with Arks exclusively, it is much easier to learn to hone on synthetic stones.

Once you have mastered honing and understand the process, what you are seeing and how to overcome issues, then switch to Naturals. You can also hone on synthetics and finish on Naturals.

That is a weird double post, never seen that before!

I haven't stropped the other razor, so i am still confident in its edge being his design.

I understand learning on synthetics is easier, but these are what i have had for a while, so for now I am going to continue to try and learn on them. I think you are probably correct though, i will go back to the soft stone and try to get the bevel fully set tomorrow or the next day.

Well, setting the bevel is 80 percent of honing, you can buy a 1k King for $20, and a Naniwia Economy for $25.

Or you can set it on a Lapped Washita. Make sure all your stones are lapped, arks are lapped with lose Silicon Carbide.

Once you set the bevel you can polish on your arks. Look up the Ark threads on lapping and burnishing your Arks.

You should also read the first 3 threads in the Honing Forum, a lot of good info there, some applies to synthetics, but a lot is similar for a natural progression.

I think Arkansas stones are probably the easiest naturals to learn on. All things considered they're about as uniform as you're gona get from a natural rock. And it's a simple 3 stone progression.

Looks like that edge needs more time on the soft to set the bevel. That's what the shiny bright spot you're seeing at the very edge is. The bevels aren't quite meeting. I'd wager if you flip the edge up and look directly down at the apex of the bevel, you'll see shiny flat spots. So it needs to go back to the soft stone.

The rough area towards the back is one of 2 things - either the bevel was set at a lower angle and you managed to raise it somehow, or at some point during your honing you applied enough pressure to flex the blade at the shoulder where the bevel begins. As your pressure lightens up, the edge drops back toward the stone, but it lifts that scored area back away from the hone so it stays rough. I'd wager you were applying a bit more pressure than you should've been, perhaps on the soft stone, which can lead to a lot of chasing your tail.

Stop counting strokes. Especially with naturals. They abrade steel much slower than synthetics. Just stop every 20 or 30 strokes and assess your edge. Keep going until it stops improving, then move on to the next stone. You can use a little pressure on the soft Ark, but you want to lighten up and be using weight of the blade only before moving on to the Hard stone. With the hard stone, you can also use a little pressure (less than the soft!) and should be using weight of the blade only by the time you're ready to move on. For the finisher, I've only ever used very light pressure if any, and most strokes by far are weight of blade only.

Over-honing isn't something you're likely to run into. Especially with a slow cutting natural. It take a LOT of perfect strokes to max out a stone & blade to the point it would be 'overhoned.' I did 2,000 rounds on a coticule, all that did was set the bevel and make my arm tired.

To help you learn how much pressure you should be finishing with, try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kL...ature=youtu.be

And since you're using naturals, this is the stroke I use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAcsGnajQyQ

I know that's a coticule, a little bit different stone, but the operating theory is the same. I only count to ensure that I have done the same number on either side of the blade. Really helps expedite things when using a natural stone. Just remember to work in 10-20 normal X strokes every now and again to ensure the edge trailing strokes don't start to make any burrs or foiling at he edge.

I definitely raised the angle, i am honing with 1 layer of tape. I will watch the videos when i get home tonight, and i will attempt to reset the bevel as well

Got a little over zealous and forgot to watch the videos first. Spent over 2 hours on the stones, i believe i have the bevel set, it will crop my arm hair now mid way up the follicle. No pictures unfortunately as my camera is refusing to focus

That it shaves arm hair, does not mean the bevel is FULLY set.

Look straight down on the edge, with magnification. If you see any shiny spots it is a chip or where the bevels are not meeting.

Here is a post with lots of edge photos of a new honer setting a bevel and running up the progression. Second Chance at Honing.

That was a good read, I wish I had his microscope! I have been looking for bright spots looking down the edge of the blade, I haven't noticed any, but that could be because I'm having trouble getting the pocket microscope to focus. It's the 60x-100x that is regularly recommended on here, do most people remove the clear plastic around the light and lens? Every time i try to look at the edge I have to rest that clear plastic on the edge itself, and i can't help but think that will cause flat spots and confuse whether the bevel is fully set.

I've got that one, but I use my 30x loupe to look down at the edge. Much easier because that doesn't have to come in contact with the blade to get into focus.

So I went back and watched the videos, then went back to the soft arkansas stone again. After a while using the technique shown in the video Euclid posted and the circle technique in one of Lynns videos, I had gotten nowhere. So I washed the stone with soap and a dish pad, and got good progress. Got the bevel set, but I noticed the shave angle was very different depending on which side of the blade I used. I reasoned that this must be because the bevel wasn't centered. Went back to the stone paying attention to the side that required about a 60 degree angle and after a while, finally got the razor to shave with both sides at about the same angle. I confirmed the bevel meeting with the pocket microscope, but no pictures because I don't have four hands. Mid and finishing strokes will be done tonight, time for a break after 2 hours on the soft stone.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate the direction and information, it's really helped speed up my learning process.