Noob + naniwa stones = love. or not?

Hey everyone,

I'm pretty new to straight razors, discovered some 8 months ago that I get a much smoother shave with a straight razor rather than off those mach 3 cartridges, so I started investing in some good razors, hones, strops and so on. Right now I have two razors made by thiers issard - a spartacus and an eagle, and a dovo renaissance. I also have 4 naniwa stones - 1k, 3k, 8k and 12k, and 4 strops of various leather types, the finest being that wide russian leather strop made by dovo.

All went good so far, never got even the smallest nick, the entire ritual is relaxing and the skin feels great after shaving. I used to get really this really bad rash after shaving with them gillettes, I am happy to be over that. I do however suck at honing. Here's what happened:
About 2 weeks ago I found this barely visible dent in the dovo, like a quarter of a millimeter, hardly visible with the naked eye, so I figured I must have touched the harder leather at the end of the strop when stropping... anyway, figured I might try to fix it: soaked all naniwas in luke-warm water, started with the 1k, gave it 30 passes (these naniwas are wide enough to work with the whole blade without having to do the x pattern) on each side, then moved on to 3k, then 8k and 12k. I never apply too much pressure. I always apply duct tape to the spine to protect it. I am not sure how I am supposed to "let the weight of the blade do the job" because if I don't at least apply 20-30grams of pressure (used an electronic scale for "tuning") to the blade it just doesn't sit properly on the hone, so that would result in an uneven finish. I kind of guide it with one finger at the tip and two fingers at the tang.

That little dent is no longer visible but I can tell/feel the razor doesn't cut as it did 7 months ago when I got it. Which is quite uncool considering the closest straight razor restoration shop I'd trust is like 3000kms away so I'd have to DHL the razors in and wait for 2 weeks to get them back. The other shops nearby are more likely suitable for axes and such, definitely not straight razors.

The dovo does not pass "the hanging hair" test, and the TI eagle also doesn't anymore. The spartacus still does, I haven't tried messing with it and also didn't use it that much.

The scarier part is the thought that if i can't seem to be able to work with the dovo, i won't be able to do the eagle which is the one i like best and use 2 times each week. The TI eagle is by far the most awesome straight razor I've ever tried, and I've tried like 20 of them in the $200-$500 range. Also having to do the spartacus at some point will be a disaster also because of the irregular spine design.

So I'd appreciate any tips and pointers y'all can share.

You may have a burr, go back to the 12k and do some x strokes.

I'm an intermediate honer at best, but I will say I do love the Naniwa SS better than the Norton 4/8k I started of with. However, I received one-on-one mentoring from a honemeister which really helped with my technique. He recommended 3M Super 88 tape; I've never seen anyone here espouse the use of duct tape, FWIW. Also, even if you are using a full-size 3" hone, you still want to use x-strokes for the most part (check out Gssixgun's Naniwa honing videos on YouTube). Lastly, do you have an LED loupe? I would suggest buying one (40x most common) off of Amazon for less than $10. Without proper magnification, you can not really tell what the edge is doing.

Also, are you doing TNT tests before you move off of the 1k stone? For your other razors that have no dings, I was told you can typically start 2 stones back for refreshing the edge. So, if you finish on a 12k, try starting with the 8k (you are skipping the 10k that you don't own here) to hone up your slightly dull razors.

I'm not sure where "the weight of the blade" thing started, as I totally disagree with the phrase. I would say what these folks mean is use the very lightest pressure you can to keep the blade flat on the hones while stroking. Many folks (including myself) started off using too much pressure as noobs. These edges are delicate and too much pressure is a bad thing.

I have this LED digital microscope I use for PCB inspection, I think it doesn't have that much of a zoom level, although it's more powerful than a loupe I don't see anything wrong in the edge of the blade - just scratches. I just ordered a 250x microscope to check it out in more detail. I'll go play with the 12k some more this evening and see what happens. I would rather not use the TNT test as thiers issard advise against it in their leaflets. I know I am doing the hair test right.

That "weight of the blade" thing doesn't sound right to me either, despite some 1 gazillion experts mentioning that's the way to go. the blade just doesn't rest properly on the stone on its own, and it makes perfect sense because of its shape and center of weight, its just physics. so I always apply some very light pressure (like i said, grams) to keep it flat on the stone.

There's a whole bunch of things going on here.

Being as new to honing as you are I would suggest not going to a 1k. Rather start at the other end of the spectrum. More grit = more damage in unexperienced hands.

Maybe try some electrical tape? Duct tape is not too common but I guess if you want to use it.

Do x strokes regardless of hone width.

If any of those blades have a slight smile a rolling or 45degree x stroke should be used or else you will have uneven wear and never get all parts of the blade to shave well.

Have you honed a razor before from the bevel correcting up?

There are a lot of good threads about bevel setting. I would think the bevel is probably not set... but that's everyone's first guess around here.


Keep us posted.

Well, as we say YMMV, since I never bother with HHT tests and rely heavily on the TNT for all of my blades even for my T-I Oakwing. :) Sounds like you still have an unset bevel; a TNT will have little to no drag/bite into a nail if this is the case. Alternatively, try the TPT at this stage. I would recommend returning to the 1k or 3k until you can at least tree-top arm hair (another test I use before proceed to polish the edge).

You definitely have enough magnification to check your edge with a microscope. Loupes for me tend to be more easily accessible while honing.

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Originally Posted by Speedster

I'm not sure where "the weight of the blade" thing started, as I totally disagree with the phrase. I would say what these folks mean is use the very lightest pressure you can to keep the blade flat on the hones while stroking. Many folks (including myself) started off using too much pressure as noobs. These edges are delicate and too much pressure is a bad thing.

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Agreed, sharpening requires more pressure.. the final polishing not so much. Knowing when and how much pressure to use is what I and many others have had trouble with in the past.

All good advice so far. It may not be a good idea to soak Naniwa hones, just spray and hone usually. Naniwa hones should be lapped flat at least before first use. You really might find it easier to use electrical tape instead of duct tape.

Bob

Ditched the duct tape and switched to electrical tape.

Pics:

Attachment 256397

Attachment 256398




And more pics after another 30 x-pattern passes on the 12k, still not cutting the hair :(


Attachment 256399

Attachment 256400

Attachment 256401

Can't seem to get more resolution our of this scope :(

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Originally Posted by BobH

All good advice so far. It may not be a good idea to soak Naniwa hones, just spray and hone usually. Naniwa hones should be lapped flat at least before first use. You really might find it easier to use electrical tape instead of duct tape.

Bob

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If you have viewed Glen's "Naniwa Honing" Parts I, II, and III on YT, he suggests soaking the SS variety for a few minutes before honing to "let them stabilize." We are not talking about keeping them in a well here like with his King stone, but just putting the next stone in the progression in some water while honing on the current stone. So the soak time is really just a few minutes, like < 10. I also do as he does and lap each stone with 5 or so figure 8's before my blade hits the stone. This keeps each hone flat as a matter of practice.

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Originally Posted by Speedster

If you have viewed Glen's "Naniwa Honing" Parts I, II, and III on YT, he suggests soaking the SS variety for a few minutes before honing to "let them stabilize." We are not talking about keeping them in a well here like with his King stone, but just putting the next stone in the progression in some water while honing on the current stone. So the soak time is really just a few minutes, like < 10. I also do as he does and lap each stone with 5 or so figure 8's before my blade hits the stone. This keeps each hone flat as a matter of practice.

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Have tried both ways:
1) letting each stone sit for 10 minutes under slow running warmish water before using
2) spraying (tried still water, then again thermal water)

Made no visible difference. These naniwa stones shouldn't be very porous, for instance the dry stone weighs about the same +/-1 gram compared to one that's been sitting in water for 10 minutes. So it doesn't absorb water, more likely it just sits on the surface. Guess the difference is very subtle, much too subtle for a noob such as myself to spot.

From your 2nd 12k session, it seems you still have an unset bevel. Those edge pics are excellent but won't reveal this type of issue.

It's challenging to be tackling intermediate edge issues with beginner skills. The first edges I honed were maintenance refreshes only and under a mentor's guidance. It wasn't until I had been honing for some time after that before I found myself using a 1k stone to remove dings.

If you update your Settings Profile with an approximate location, maybe someone will be able to help you directly.

Looks like the bevel is not set from those pictures. Having the bevel set correctly at 1k is imperative. Lynn has a video on setting the bevel in the beginner section. Looks like you have a lot of very good stones there!! Once you learn how to use them accordingly you'll strike gold, guaranteed!!:beer1:
Your on the right track, just need a little fine tuning.

You should be able to shave with your razor after the 1K hone. Search for the thread 1K shave on this forum.

I find Naniwa hones like to be refreshed more frequently that Shapton hones for example. It may be me, but that was my finding. To refresh your hones, watch Gssixgun's videos on how to do it, including how to use the Naniwa SS hones to their best potential.

Pressure/torque is helpful when honing, but I have found that some hollow ground blades will flex when torquing causing the very edge to flex up off the hone and the end result is that you just hone away steel while the edge remains dull. Yes, if you keep the exact same torque amount on the razor, the edge will eventually get honed, but it can take a long time and while you may be better at it than me, I cannot keep the torque to the exact same amount, lap after lap. I have a Boker full bellied hollow that is so thin, it's like tin foil. I cannot use *any* torque or pressure when honing it.... I need to use just the weight of the blade and then she comes together.

All this leads back to the 1K hone... if it's not shaving sharp off the 1K hone, there is zero point in going up in grit as these hones simply polish, not sharpen. You can hone the razor sharp by keeping at it on a finer hone, but if you have your 1K, it's so much faster. Use electrical tape on the spine.... sometimes we tend to use too much pressure on the spine while trying to get a razor sharp and that simply results in wearing away the spine while the edge remains dull.... The tape protects the spine and you can see if you are using too much pressure because the tape is being ground away if you are. I used to be heavy on the spine, and leaning on that spine without the tape can end up ruining the razor.

A quick word on HHT tests. They don't work crap for me. Some gents can use them to gauge a razors sharpness, but if they used *my* hair, they would never get the edge to pass the HHT test. And therein lies the problem. The hair used varies from honer to honer, so there is no correlation between them. A rough ground edge off a bench grinder could be made to pass the HHT test with the right hair. The hair wedges into a groove in the grind and is so brittle it just falls apart. The HHT can be used to gauge your edge if you do it consistently and learn what it means to YOU, but it is NOT a valid test to prove a razor is sharp and smooth, only a shave test does that. If a razor shaves badly but passes the HHT test, clearly it is NOT passing the shave test.

And sometimes, if you just can't seem to get going..... STOP. Take a breather, leave it for a few days, come back with fresh eyes another day and don't be afraid to ask someone else for help. It happened to me when after an extended lay off from straight shaving (medical issues.... I ended up using a DE razor for a few years). I grabbed one of my favourite straights and starting to hone it up, but it wasn't getting better.... frustrating when I used to be able to do it easy before. I watched the bevel and it started going wonky so I stopped, packed up the razor and sent to someone else who hones daily. I got a call a few days later and it was ready for use. I asked him how far off it was and he replied that it was really close... it just needed a little bit of light honing and it was great. Next time, I had no problems with it, so it was just my muscle memory..... a bit rusty you could say.

I do not have a Ti or a Dovo razor, but they all look full hollow ground to me, so the first two things that come to mind is that you might be using too much torque, or perhaps the hones need a quick refresh.... In either case, arm hair should be mowed down after just the 1K, if it's not, the bevel still needs work until it does.


Regards

Christian

Phew! That's a mouthful! Thanks El Capiton!!:beer1:

Thank you for the input, much appreciated. It is true that all 3 blades are "full hollow".

After another 40 x-pattern passes on each stone, with slightly more pressure on the 1k and 3k, I've managed to get it to this:

Attachment 256406

It still won't cut a hanging hair like the Spartacus does. It shaves dry and wet hair off the hand right after the 1K and it still gives a decent shave as it is now. But it just doesn't feel as it did last year out of the box :( plus I have this super-sensitive skin on my neck and I get a rash there I wasn't getting some 6 months ago from his blade. I also don't get the rash from the Spartacus blade which is almost new. So I'm kind of determined to work on this until I get it right otherwise it defeats the point for me to use a straight razor if it will vandalize the skin.

it's hard to learn to hone from videos alone JMHO so if you can get with a member close by ( maybe reveal where you live) there might be someone to help you. can't emphasize the importance of the bevel set as stated before.

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Originally Posted by tintin

it's hard to learn to hone from videos alone JMHO so if you can get with a member close by ( maybe reveal where you live) there might be someone to help you. can't emphasize the importance of the bevel set as stated before.

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I live in europe :( don't think there's anyone here near me.

Just had a shave with the dovo... it was real bad and unpleasant. What I managed to do with the dovo WTG + XTG + ATG I did with the TI eagle on the other half of the face with a single pass WTG, without the rash under the chin. When I do a WTG + XTG with the TI I get a nearly perfect shave. Even if this TI eagle is not in its original condition anymore, it used to be awesome in the first weeks. I guess maybe my expectations are just too high for this dovo razor. Maybe its just lower quality, I don't know...will chill for a few days and give it another go, if I still can't manage to hone it well enough I'll just get another TI and forget other brands for good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Speedster

If you have viewed Glen's "Naniwa Honing" Parts I, II, and III on YT, he suggests soaking the SS variety for a few minutes before honing to "let them stabilize." We are not talking about keeping them in a well here like with his King stone, but just putting the next stone in the progression in some water while honing on the current stone. So the soak time is really just a few minutes, like < 10. I also do as he does and lap each stone with 5 or so figure 8's before my blade hits the stone. This keeps each hone flat as a matter of practice.

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Yup, was aware of how Glen does soak his SS Naniwas but I just spray and hone which seems to work too. Rarely do I lap my Naniwas after the first time as I use exclusively X strokes and watch the water move up the blade as I go. I just clean my Naniwas with a small stone that came with them, Nagura? possibly.

This is what happens when you learn to hone on your own, you just find a way that works for you. Not that my way of doing it is right but it works for me.

Bob

I've got a Dovo Ebenholz and Flowing that both shave equally as well as my TI when they are properly honed. Solingen steel is excellent stuff and fairly easy to hone actually.

Take a break and come back to the Dovo later. I myself am having issues honing a custom American razor that is giving me fits. Always microchips during the shave test. Out of 14 or so blades, it's the only one I'm having any sort of issues honing. After a third attempt yesterday, I decided to let it sit for a while.

I agree - the problem is the honing and not the razor.

Good to know you "splash & go" with the Naniwas, Bob. Maybe the next time around, I will be a little less OCD and try it your way. ;)

I find myself picking up Glen's habits. For example, I flip the blade safely on the hone when using one hand but fall into the wrong way when using both hands. I usually catch myself and correct though before anything bad happens. :thinking:

Moreover, I find the T-I more challenging for me to hone than the Dovos due to the C135 steel and the 1/4 to 1/2 hollow grind. Actually, I should probably use the word "unfamiliar" rather than "challenging" since more of my blades are full hollow. :shrug:

This one is the dovo after 6 months and 2 shaves a week, and some 4 honing attempts described above. Still don't like how it cuts. Bevel is some 0.35mm wide.

Attachment 256408

The TI eagle after 6 months of 3-4 shaves a week. Cuts much better than the dovo. Bevel is some 0.6 mm wide.

Attachment 256409

This is the TI spartacus after less than 10 shaves. Best cutter I've had so far. Bevel is 1mm wide, like 3 times wider than the dovo.

Attachment 256410

Will take a break from the Dovo and try my hand at honing later.

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Originally Posted by alexc81

I live in europe :( don't think there's anyone here near me.

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You might be surprised. We have quite a few European members. If you do an advanced search in the community member list you might find someone relatively nearby. Alternatively, you can just change your member profile to include your location--as specific or vague as you wish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexc81

(these naniwas are wide enough to work with the whole blade without having to do the x pattern).

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That may be a problem if the Dovo is not perfectly ground.... as most are. Any warp or uneven grind will not be covered without the X stroke.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

That may be a problem if the Dovo is not perfectly ground.... as most are. Any warp or uneven grind will not be covered without the X stroke.

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Yup, and that is why I don't really care if I lap my Naniwas or not. With using an X stroke exclusively it really doesn't seem to matter. I'd say the vast majority of razors I have do have some warp or uneven grind issues. Gotta love honing gymnastics.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

That may be a problem if the Dovo is not perfectly ground.... as most are. Any warp or uneven grind will not be covered without the X stroke.

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Did X strokes on the last 2 attempts... still not happy with it. I think the edge is fine at least from what I can see with this s**tty scope, although its not as new - I'm just getting started with this after all, I am a noob... more likely my expectations are just too high, part due to starting with the eagle as my first straight razor which set the standard pretty high - as a side note, I also have a $30 chinese razor of some kind which I tried once but quickly gave up after shaving less than 2 square inches, now I keep it as a letter opener. Although I don't get much mail, just a few bills each month and the occasional spam disguised as something else to make you open it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the "best" straight razor one can buy? I realize that is subjective and also by "best" I don't mean any of the following:
- most expensive "designer" razor;
- ultra-rare or unique;
- fancy steel, like that "damascus" steel I saw in some TI razors priced at EUR 1500 or so, big LOL, that's not damascus steel as there hasn't really been any true, real damascus steel made in the last 200 years, besides even if it is it's probably not suitable for straight razors, that steel was used for swords where it outperformed other types of steel _back then_, but in this day and age it probably won't be as good as the high tech steel on the market today;

Just thinking to spend some 2-3K on a good set of razors which I'd only hone once a year or every two years. Will keep my current TI razors, the eagle and the spartacus as they are too awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexc81

Did X strokes on the last 2 attempts... still not happy with it. I think the edge is fine at least from what I can see with this s**tty scope, although its not as new - I'm just getting started with this after all, I am a noob... more likely my expectations are just too high, part due to starting with the eagle as my first straight razor which set the standard pretty high - as a side note, I also have a $30 chinese razor of some kind which I tried once but quickly gave up after shaving less than 2 square inches, now I keep it as a letter opener. Although I don't get much mail, just a few bills each month and the occasional spam disguised as something else to make you open it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the "best" straight razor one can buy? I realize that is subjective and also by "best" I don't mean any of the following:
- most expensive "designer" razor;
- ultra-rare or unique;
- fancy steel, like that "damascus" steel I saw in some TI razors priced at EUR 1500 or so, big LOL, that's not damascus steel as there hasn't really been any true, real damascus steel made in the last 200 years, besides even if it is it's probably not suitable for straight razors, that steel was used for swords where it outperformed other types of steel _back then_, but in this day and age it probably won't be as good as the high tech steel on the market today;

Just thinking to spend some 2-3K on a good set of razors which I'd only hone once a year or every two years. Will keep my current TI razors, the eagle and the spartacus as they are too awesome.

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No such thing as the best razor, only opinion based on individual experiences.
I prefer TI's to Dovos . I prefer Bengalls to Invictas. I prefer vintage to modern. I prefer Iwasaki to most anything else. This thread will go many pages if everyone posts their idea of best razor.

btw don't you have a focus ring so you can adjust your scope or is it a fixed power ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No such thing as the best razor, only opinion based on individual experiences.
I prefer TI's to Dovos . I prefer Bengalls to Invictas. I prefer vintage to modern. I prefer Iwasaki to most anything else. This thread will go many pages if everyone posts their idea of best razor.

btw don't you have a focus ring so you can adjust your scope or is it a fixed power ?

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It does have a focus ring and light buttons but the scope is not so good. Those were the best quality pictures I was able to get after adjusting light, distance and focus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexc81

It does have a focus ring and light buttons but the scope is not so good. Those were the best quality pictures I was able to get after adjusting light, distance and focus.

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If you move the ring till the objective is as close as possible to the razor, then make minor adjustments you may me able to get the max power into effect.

If it isn't cutting your bevel isn't set. If your bevel isn't set, all the work you did to go further was a waste.

My advice: Don't expect 30 laps - or any set number of laps - to get you 'there.' Stay on each stone until the work is done. Might be 30 laps, might be 200. Give the edge what it needs. Since it's not shaving, your bevel is most likely not set and you polished an incomplete edge.

Can you position the edge straight up and look directly down at the apex of the bevel with your scope? If you can, and you see any white shiny stuff that way, you still need work on the 1K. Sometimes you can also see white traces at the edge from the side, but it's a lot harder to tell for sure without looking straight down. Ideally the line where the edges meet should be more or less invisible before moving off the 1K. Then you can move forward to the 3k.

Play with the lighting, move it around if you can. Any errant white sheen at the apex is the enemy and must be eradicated with extreme prejudice. Or judicious honing, but the former has a better ring to it.

This thread should help out, PCM took some great pictures of his honing adventures:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ggestions.html

Ya no such thing as a best razor, my finest shaver was a $20 Kinfolks, as far as when they need honing, when you get more experience. And your stropping is better, then they will last a long time between honings. And then only seeing the 12k once in a while to refresh. Plus once you get to that point it's more economical to just send it to a pro.

By the way there is a couple super hone guys over there, Jamie(celticrusader) will definantly get your edges right, much better than they were out of the box, most factory edges are not up to par. Tc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexc81

I never apply too much pressure. I always apply duct tape to the spine to protect it. I am not sure how I am supposed to "let the weight of the blade do the job" because if I don't at least apply 20-30grams of pressure (used an electronic scale for "tuning") to the blade it just doesn't sit properly on the hone, so that would result in an uneven finish. I kind of guide it with one finger at the tip and two fingers at the tang.

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Hi Alex, one thing that caught my eye in your original post was the blade not sitting properly on the hone. If you mean by that the blade doesn't sit flat on the hone you're seeing something that is quite common. Many razor are not made to lay flat on the hone from heel to point.

Give the rolling x stroke a look in our library ......... http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...lling_X_stroke

And read this PDF, also from the library, to get an idea of how some razors with smiling profiles should be manipulated on the hones ...... :gl:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...t_-_Honing.pdf

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Hi Alex, one thing that caught my eye in your original post was the blade not sitting properly on the hone. If you mean by that the blade doesn't sit flat on the hone you're seeing something that is quite common. Many razor are not made to lay flat on the hone from heel to point.

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Actually I meant that if I just place the blade on the stone and let it sit there the tip will raise as the handle is heavier, so the center of weight would be somewhere around the pivot pin. So I have to apply some pressure for the blade to sit on the stone properly.

Also when trying to do a straight 90 degree pass on the stone, the heel part of the blade will fall on a somewhat different angle because the heel is thicker. That's not a big issue though, it will just cause the edge to get a bit wider for the first quarter of an inch or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Give the rolling x stroke a look in our library ......... http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...lling_X_stroke

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This is exactly how I do it now. I start at an angle, maybe 60 degrees between the edge of the blade and the long side of the stone, then I basically slide it towards the end of the stone while applying very light pressure. The tip of the blade gets a somewhat longer motion because the stroke resembles an arc, pretty much like gssixgun does it in his 3 videos.

I'm trying to upload a video of the 3 razors I have. Their edges look real nice with the naked eye, all even and shiny. Save for the dovo which has a liiiitle bit wider edge near the tip and heel. Will post a link to the video here when done uploading to YT.

Can't seem to manage to post the video directly so I'm pasting the link

https://youtu.be/D-rJBCq6CRc