If it doesn't shave work it a little more. Once that bevel is completely set and you run a bunch of feather touch strokes it will shave just fine. Nice razor by the way.
If it doesn't shave work it a little more. Once that bevel is completely set and you run a bunch of feather touch strokes it will shave just fine. Nice razor by the way.
Yeah, it was kind of an epiphany in that sense, Ron-Really, why not max out every stone? I know I have often been guilty (maybe moreso in my newbie "formula" honing days) of just saying "Screw it, let's move up the 8km or whatever. I'm going to test shave after every stepping stone this summer I think, just to know exactly how much refinement I'm getting at each step.
This was an interesting experience. I actually honed two razors on the 1K, the Top Flight and a Sensation. Both bevels looked great under the loupe. The Top Flight barely cut anything on the test shave on the left side. I used the Sensation on the right and it cut much better. I actually finished both sides with the Sensation for a decent shave. It wasn't a smooth shave but the whiskers are gone. I'm going to take @RezDog 's advice and give them a bunch more light strokes and see what happens.
I really need a razor meet so somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong. I'm not going to give up though. Thanks guys. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b89c8ed966.jpg
There is no secret. My method is all about my 30x loupe and looking almost straight down at the point of the apex. It should be almost invisible. I say almost because if it is tilted slightly it is easier to see, but the item you want to pay attention to is the very point of the bevel. It needs to be perfect. No sparkle, no jagged lines. Once it is complete you can go for the finishing touches and then test shave. It should cut easily but it tends to be not so kind to the skin, a little rough feeling. You should closely examine the tip of the apex on both of those razors and see what the difference is. It is likely not a lot of difference either, but that little bit is everything when it come to smooth and sharp razors.
Thank you. I already looked straight down with a lighted loupe and didn't see any sparkle. I will compare the bevels again tomorrow and see if I can see what's different. I might even pull out the microscope.
Gave this another go. Different razor. Still quite a bit of pulling. Just not cutting the whiskers like id want in a shave. Bet it would take 4 or 5 passes to get clean if that. I'll go back to the 1k again next weekend and try again. Guessing from the latest posts im still not maxed out on the 1k. :(
jerry, when you finally get that aha moment where you finally get that 1k shaving, you will find that your finished edge will be much better. I really couldn't hone well till I did this test when Glen suggested it to me. many failures, even though I had some good shaves by the time I got to the finisher but not consistent. once I learned that the 1k needs just as light a touch on the finishing strokes and then I started using that 1k edge before going up the scale. it really did teach me its all about the bevel set. but after their set I don't get much practice, maybe 1razor a year will go all the way back.
stick with it and you will be more consistent, with smoother edges Tc
Tnx TC. I'll get there. I just wish i had more time to do it. Dont think i can hone and drive so it will have to wait another week.
What I do is take my loupe set it on the side of the blade and find the bevel. Then I slowly rotate the blade until I get on top of the edge with my loupe, if the bevel is set your edge will disappear. Then all you will see is where the bevel meets the face of the blade from the apex. Plus I have noticed doing things this way I have found spots where I thought the bevel went clear to the edge and it infact did not, basically I have found a double bevel when I did not intend to have one.
Good luck Mrchick!
it don't take much time I have about 1 hour honing this year and my shaves everyday are still smooth ! Tc
Ive looked very closely at the edge and i can see it with my 40x loupe. Its a tiny white line. Very, very thin. Maybe i shouldnt be seeing this. Ill work on that. I will also check another razor that i know is very sharp. This might be a good idea. Thanks for pointing this out @ejmolitor37.
I always use my microscope during the bevel setting. The reality is that not all parts of the edge come along at the same rate all the time, and sometimes bad things happen at the edge during the honing. Magnification allows you to make sure the the edge has reached its full potential, even at the 1k level.
Speaking of the 1k…
After doing 600 and 800 grit shaves, I moved up to the 1k. Not surprising, the shave has continued to improve. With each move up, the consistency of hair removal improved along with the smoothness. It is not close the normal quality of my shaves, but if I had to, I could continue to shave with an edge off of a 1k.
No, you definitely should not be seeing a white line. However, it is great news that you DO see it because now you know what to look for.
Two points define a line. Two lines define a plane. Where two planes intersect, they meet to form a line. The intersection of the two bevels meet to form the line that is the edge. When the blade is observed from the end, the edge should look like an inverted "V" while a dull edge looks like an inverted "U." When light shines straight down on the U shape, some of the light can reflect back up off of the rounded apex of the U. That is what you saw in the form of the "tiny white line." A geometric line has no width, but of course a razor's edge does have some dimension of width. However, a sharp razor has much less width at the edge in comparison to a dull razor. When light shines down on a sharp V shaped edge, the light is reflected sideways off of the two bevels but virtually none is reflected back up off of the very thin apex of the V of a razor with a fully set bevel. That is why you should not see any light reflected off on an edge with properly meeting bevels.
Keep working on your 1k edge until that white line is gone.
Once the line and perhaps sparkles have all disappeared it is time for some feather light strokes to smooth the edge and remove the coarse or harsh part of the shave. Keep going you are almost there!
It's been a while since I've done the 1K shave. I'll take up the challenge gentlemen, set the bar a bit lower (pun most certainly intended), to start with.
The next shave is lined up, Chosera 600 and this Puma #222.
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Utopian, what you say makes perfect sense. And the fact that a very shape edge cant reflect directly up... i had figured that you couldnt see the edge with the naked eye but figured with a loupe you would be able to see it. I was wrong. This has helped me a lot! I now know im close but not close enough on my bevel set.
This is great! It now has given me a real thing to check for when bevel setting. Not just a feel. I know i will get it next time. Well, the next time i get a chance to get home and get my hands on a hone that is. Thanks all for the support and help. :chapeau
You can certainly see a rolled or damaged edge Jerry. Under bright light you will see little shinny spots and with the neked eye. But especially if you see it on a loupe your close but not there. ;)
The last time i shaved off a 1k was a couple years ago. I did not have a Chosera and really just put in the effort to make the razor shave. That is what I achieved. A razor that shaved and not well at all.
This time around I bought an ugly little chipped razor off eBay and used the 1k like it was the only stone I had. I went from slurry to water I went from pressure to less than blade weight.
The result is a razor that can shave quite smoothly off the Chosera and my normal stropping count linen and leather. My future honing efforts will get the "one and only stone" approach at bevel set from now on.
I'm very much guilty of getting to this phase at 1K and thinking to myself, "Good enough. I'll clean it up on the 4K..." I know there shouldn't be any white shiny visible when you're done with the 1K. But I also know that once it's gone the method you used to make it gone is somewhat irrelevant. Maybe for the sake of form I should get out of that habit.
Took the 1k challenge with a honing-practice razor and did a couple WTG strokes with it this morning. Wasn't smooth like a finished blade, but it definitely worked. Have spent several months reading forum honing tips and practicing. Will shave test my edges as I move up the progression.
A question: A while back I found a great thread that had good photos of fellas doing the looking down the long edge for light &/or sparkles. Anyone happen to know the thread link? Can't find it again :gaah: and want to look at the photos again.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ml#post1573089
This is not the only thread but it has a lot on really good pictures.
Awesome, thanks RezDog! :chapeau
Shaved the Taiyou off the 1k King this morning and had a decent, if not great shave. The one thing I did differently from my normal bevel setting routine was to strop and then do light finishing strokes. Not only did it make the edge usable for shaving, but I was able to just now max out the Botan slurry with a single dilution rather than the usual 2 or 3 - I go straight from the King to Jnat. I'll finish honing this afternoon and test the finished edge tomorrow morning. Very useful challenge, indeed!
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Continuing with the Gold Dollar - I shaved the right half of my face with the 4K this morning. It tugged a little bit, I suppose this is why we say the general rule of thumb is 8K for a comfortable shave. But a big step up from 1K, and got much cleaner in a single pass.
The second half of the shave went a little rockier. My Shapton Kuromaku stones came in, as did a Geneva Cutlery razor from eBay. I cleaned up the new razor, worked out a crack it had that I missed when I was checking photos ( :gaah: ) then set about getting the bevel set on the Shapton 1k.
Talk about an aggressive stone, that thing feels (and shaves!) like honing on sand paper and stripped the steel off in record time. I've done a few blades that required a chip be worked out, and this stone set the bevel faster than just about anything else I've used. First pass everything looked good under the loupe so I took it in for a shave test. It didn't shave so much as it ripped hair out. Back to the stone for about a hundred passes, 50 medium pressure 50 zero pressure. Didn't look any different under the loupe and still wanted to tear hair off my face rather than shave it off. Back to the stone, bunch of light passes because the bevel was already as straight as I could get it at 1K and meeting. Still ripped hair out.
So for kicks and grins I lapped the Shapton 2K and took the razor to it. Once I stopped seeing improvement in the stria I stropped 50 linen, 50 leather, and shaved. NOW it shaves about like my Norton 1K edge did. I suppose this is why, in reference to these specific hones, I read someone comment that to them the bevel is not set until 1.5-2K.
Well, no razor burn on either side of the face. Left side is a bit patchy, by the time I got a workable edge on it I just wanted to be done. I suppose I'll lap & prep the 5K stone tonight and maybe get each of these blades ready for their next phase of testing.
WTG on 600, XTG/ATG on 1K. Unfortunately it didnt occur to me to take a photo of the 600 edge, so here is only the 1K. Phone and loupe, nothing fancy.
This went much better than I expected and wasn't very uncomfortable at all. Far from great of course, but it was a good exercise, one I will probably repeat in a year, or so. :)
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Today's shenaniganery: Gold dollar tuned up on the Norton 8K, Geneva tuned up on the Shapton Kuromaku 5K.
First observation with respect to the Geneva and the Shapton 5K: You would be hard pressed to tell the difference under a loupe between the Kuromaku 5K and the Norton 4K. To my eye the 5K is a touch finer, about what you'd expect to see when comparing a 4K and 5K hone I guess. No difference in the shave between them really. Slight tuggage, but with a single pass and little spot touch ups it got respectably clean. No razor burn on the left half of the face today.
Second observation between the Gold Dollar and Norton 8K: Definitely a marked improvement over the 5K. Both under the loupe and in the shave. So we can put the 'Norton 8K is actually a 5K hone' myth to bed. As for the shave, close, clean and comfortable. The aftershave burned a bit on the right side, but that's normal for me with a razor fresh off a 8K+ synthetic stone. Too keen.
I suppose for the final phase I'll put the Cnat edge back on my cheap Chinese razor, and of course finish the Geneva with the Shapton 12K. We'll see if I end up making a Cut of the Day post the same day I finish the 'Shave off every hone in your progression' challenge.
:w :popcorn:
OK-- so you guys are having way too much fun again so I'm in.
I just got three brand new Choseras 400, 600 and 800 for knife work but if Ron can do it I can try.
OH BOY What have I gotten myself into now?
I will pick a test razor tomorrow and start with my 400, never tried shaving off of anything coarser than a Norton 1K before so will report back on how it goes.
Call it the Chosera challenge 400 next 600 then 800 on to the 1K then the 3K will have to switch to other Naniwa stones past the 3K. Maybe the Falcon 4K and Fuji 8K, well we'll see, this is mainly about learning and I'm still doing a lot of that.
Thanks Ron for getting this started again and for everybody's participation.
Frank
I would have tried the 400, but my two best 400 grit hones, including the Chosera, are out on loan.
I suspect that the 400 might be pushing the limits!
I will say that there is a marked improvement in the shave from 600 to 800 to 1k. Also, even though you said that you got your three for knife work, all three are great for repair work on razors.
I'm essentially a complete novice but I'm in. If nothing else this seems like an excellent way of learning as much as I can from each stone in the progression. In full admittance of my lack of experience, any initial success I have I happily credit to the couple of hours Lynn took trying to impart a little of the honing knowledge he has acquired over the years.
I've got a 5/8 Thistle Cut that is in need of a bevel as well as the ShurEdge I just finished cleaning up. I'll start with the former and then try to apply anything I've learned to the later to see if I can reproduce my results. Wish me luck, gentlemen!
I did this once on Glens advice a few years ago. Its a good experiment. But once is is enough for me. ;)
Objective completed...maybe.
I took the Thistle Cut to my Shapton 1k yesterday after ensuring that I was starting from scratch by killing the edge on a glass jar. I used Lynn Abram's Circle Method to get me started. I'll recall doing two sets of 40 circles with pressure before doing another set or two with light pressure, this was then followed up by a fair number (no, I don't remember) of X-strokes.
The edge was tested with the TPT and AHT and examined under a 40x loupe. At this point I'm really trying to build confidence with each of these tests and while I'm beginning to develop some confidence with the TPT and AHT the loupe is helpful but not something I have any confidence in telling me much about the edge itself. The TPT grabbed my thumb pad pretty well along the length of the blade, well enough that I could make the full hollow blade ring if I removed my thumb in a particular manner. The AHT would cut arm hair at skin level and I even used it to remove the fine hairs on my knuckles. At this point I gave the razor 50 laps on wool felt and another 100 on SRD Premium I leather.
All well and good but the shave test is where we decide if I managed to pass the 1K test or not.
My initial WTG pass tugged a bit at first but was not unduly uncomfortable and the tugging faded a the shave progressed. I managed my full three pass shave, along with some touch up work and the razor did a fair job, leaving me with a relatively close shave without any undue irritation. The one issue I had was that my traditional problem areas, where I often leave stubble even after the best of shaves. These areas were left with heavier stubble than usual but not anything too terrible. Both witch hazel and alcohol-based aftershave were used with no burn from either product.
So, I'm tentatively calling this a success but I'd like everyone's thoughts on the matter. The worst part of learning to hone is simply not having the knowledge base to determine if I'm making good progress or not. It will shave, that alone is a good thing, but the fact that the problem areas needed clean up gives me pause. Back to the hone or up the progression to the Norton 4K?
It is sounding successful. You may want to re examine your edge with your loupe and see if it is as pristine of a 'V' and you would like. That is done by looking almost straight down on the apex. There should be no sparkles or white lines. If that looks good then I would say it is a success.
GreenRipper-If you got a reasonably close shave off of that 1k, that (along with the other tests you mentioned) is the best evidence that you have a solid bevel. If you must, maybe hit it again with 10 or 15 ultralight passes. Then I would max out that 4K, strop and shave to see what it did. Let us know how it goes.
Thanks for the input guys, you essentially recommended what was already on my mind. As I worked up a sweat yesterday the additional irritation from the 1K shave made itself apparent, although I generally experience this even with the best of shaves, so I'm blaming any additional discomfort on the 1K finish.
Don't be surprised if I don't post an update on this for a few days. Life and my project list are catching up with me so I may not get a chance to play with my hones until sometime next week.
I decided to give this a go and think that I am seeing more of the advantage of stropping than the 1K shave.
2 pass shave WTG and then ATG. No strops. A little rough, but then after stropping 20 each on CROX, fire hose, and then leather it improved tremendously.
A good looking shave. I will leave it as is and strop it a bit more for experimenting.
I haven't needed a razor honed in two years. Proper stropping can keep a razor sharp a lot longer than most believe it can. And no, I haven't needed to refresh them in any way. CrOx is not in my vocabulary. But I understand the pleasure many get out of the act of honing, it just hasn't captured my interest. But for honers this thread is full of nuggets to help improve technique.