Short stones/strokes - More Control? Less Burr?

Gentlemen,

I've been meaning to post on this topic because Iwasaki of course mentions a honyama burr and removing it, but also because of comments from others, most recently srdjan in post #13 on the 'towel' thread, and using shorter strokes, especially to finish seems to be an interesting topic.

A while back on another forum, Eric Kretz mentioned that long strokes on a jnat could cause a burr to develop that he could see or begin to see with a microscope, and that shorter strokes reduced or eliminated it. Eric, please correct me if I am wrong or mis-speaking, it's been some time ago. A different individual posted on that forum indicating that he thought better control was maintained with shorter strokes possibly leading to better results.

I like using the 'leather' size jnats, nominally 136x80mm but wanted to ask if people here feel the same way about shorter hones/strokes, what they feel makes shorter strokes better (or not), and how they implement those strokes while honing. Typically if I'm using a full-size or size 60 stone, I'll reduce the stroke length and pressure for the last half of the final finishing.

Any input would be appreciated!

Cheers, Steve

I finish with short, what I call V strokes (short strokes with a large linear component).

Using a mind experiment it is easy to see how honing on an extremely long hone would lead to the formation of a burr.

Hi Steve! I will only just slightly modify your recollection - IIRC I made that statement regarding very quick-cutting, grit-rich JNats used with very little or no slurry. Then occasionally I see that result. I definitely see it more often with synthetic hones.

I also find that finishing with short, alternating strokes is the best route to finishing burr-free for me. As far as I'm concerned it's only common sense that shorter strokes will produce less burr/wire formation. If you think about it, a very long stroke of several feet on one side of the blade only would tend to produce a massive burr/wire. It only makes sense that very short, alternating strokes would be the best and easiest way to eliminate one.

Following a similarly-sized hard coticule, I've been using a 1-3/8" x 3" honyama with water as a finisher. Short strokes indeed. This seems to necessitate a laterally-biassed, rolling X-stroke. Seems to work well for me. No problems with a burr there.

Alternating strokes will not easily create a burr.
If you're getting a burr on a razor you're using a bunch of pressure or doing many strokes on one side or honing past the meeting of the 2 sides. This is more likely at bevel set.

Iwasaki did use a fair bit of pressure in early stages but that's not such a bad thing to get things rolling.

Of course, if you're restoring an edge that gets sharp at some points earlier than others a burr can also develop but I doubt the size of the stone plays a major part.

We can't really theorise about stones that are several feet in length :p

I see burrs being relative to pressure & not the length of the hone or a short stroke on a long hone.

Most of my honing is done on 8 x 3 inch (200 x 75 mm) or larger stones and I can't say I've run into a lot of burrs. Like onimaru55 said, mostly at bevel set with a lot of pressure and many strokes on one side. And that's a non issue because on the rare occasion I DO create a burr, it's knocked off before moving on to the next hone with a handful of edge leading X strokes.

Preference kind of depends on what I'm doing though. If I'm doing a full bevel set or working with slurry, I want a wider longer hone so I can get a full stroke and keep more slurry atop the hone. If I'm just tweaking an edge that just recently fell off, a small 5-6 x 2 inch (125-150 x 50 mm) stone or barber hone might be all that's warranted.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Most of my honing is done on 8 x 3 inch (200 x 75 mm) or larger stones and I can't say I've run into a lot of burrs. Like onimaru55 said, mostly at bevel set with a lot of pressure and many strokes on one side. And that's a non issue because on the rare occasion I DO create a burr, it's knocked off before moving on to the next hone with a handful of edge leading X strokes.

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Same here edge repairing with lots of slurry often = burr, but a few strokes on a clean stone & all gone.

I have never seen burr form on a Jnat. I have seen over-honed edges on a Jnat.
Several light strokes fix that usually.
For years, I have been using short finishing strokes, almost perpendicular direction of motion to the long side of the stone, on Jnats and on synthetics. I like the results.

Please pardon the question, but I'm confused. Isn't over-honing the same as forming a burr on an already set bevel?

Edit: Thank you all kindly for your answers; I understand the difference between a burr and a wire edge now.

As I understand it a wire edge is a burr created by overhoning. Due to overhoning parts of the edge will become so thin they break off leaving a burr. I remove wire edges by a few roundtrips on a leather strop: spine lifted & very little pressure. Other forum member will breadknife the edge on a cork.

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Originally Posted by JeffR

Please pardon the question, but I'm confused. Isn't over-honing the same as forming a burr on an already set bevel?

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Burr forms from excessive pressure on the low grit stones. Wire/foil edge forms from thinning the steel at the apex of the formed bevels on the high grit hones. Joining the edge helps get rid of the problem most of the time.

Burrs form on most steels regardless of pressure, but excess pressure will produce bigger ones. I did a test some time ago with a Chosera 1k and featherweight pressure and was easily able to form a burr. Burr formation is a function of ductility and occurs because the steel at such tiny scale just pushes away from the hone rather than cutting. This happens no matter what level of pressure is used.

What magnification did you use to see these burrs?

They were easily visible with a 10x loupe.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Burrs form on most steels regardless of pressure, but excess pressure will produce bigger ones. I did a test some time ago with a Chosera 1k and featherweight pressure and was easily able to form a burr. Burr formation is a function of ductility and occurs because the steel at such tiny scale just pushes away from the hone rather than cutting. This happens no matter what level of pressure is used.

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Regardless no,, Relative yes.

Straight Razor Honing + Burr = ***SMH***





Honing NOT edge restoration two separate topics

My theory and why I use shorter strokes hasn't got a lot to do with wire formation, as I, like Onimaru don't see the wire form that easily on a natural stone. I can't deny though, you gentlemen make some valid points, both regarding low grit and high grit stones.

My observation has been that, when you use a short stroke, it's like you have to think about the flip, almost as soon as you start the stroke. Getting into that mindset means the body (hand) will follow... and automagically, the pressure gets reduced. I think this is what Iwasaki had in mind when he said "the pressure seems to reduce with shorter strokes". JMHO of course - it's a state of mind as well.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Burrs form on most steels regardless of pressure, but excess pressure will produce bigger ones. I did a test some time ago with a Chosera 1k and featherweight pressure and was easily able to form a burr. Burr formation is a function of ductility and occurs because the steel at such tiny scale just pushes away from the hone rather than cutting. This happens no matter what level of pressure is used.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

They were easily visible with a 10x loupe.

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I cannot understand this. I'm not arguing your observations, but I have a Zeiss stereomicroscope with maximum magnification of 63x through the eyepieces and 95x with my optical camera adapter and the entire thing has excellent resolution, and I never have been able to produce a visible burr on a razor.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

My theory and why I use shorter strokes hasn't got a lot to do with wire formation, as I, like Onimaru don't see the wire form that easily on a natural stone. I can't deny though, you gentlemen make some valid points, both regarding low grit and high grit stones.

My observation has been that, when you use a short stroke, it's like you have to think about the flip, almost as soon as you start the stroke. Getting into that mindset means the body (hand) will follow... and automagically, the pressure gets reduced. I think this is what Iwasaki had in mind when he said "the pressure seems to reduce with shorter strokes". JMHO of course - it's a state of mind as well.

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the lightest possible pressure is achieved by short slow stroke IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I cannot understand this. I'm not arguing your observations, but I have a Zeiss stereomicroscope with maximum magnification of 63x through the eyepieces and 95x with my optical camera adapter and the entire thing has excellent resolution, and I never have been able to produce a visible burr on a razor.

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Did you TRY to form a burr? I wouldn't have formed one either if I hadn't wanted to. If you stick to alternating strokes it is almost difficult to form a visible burr. Then you may need that excess pressure to actually see one form on most steels.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

the lightest possible pressure is achieved by short slow stroke IMHO.

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That was the opinion expressed in the Iwasaki treatise as well. The shorter the stroke, the lighter the pressure.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Did you TRY to form a burr? I wouldn't have formed one either if I hadn't wanted to. If you stick to alternating strokes it is almost difficult to form a visible burr. Then you may need that excess pressure to actually see one form on most steels.

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No, but this thread and many other in the past have seemed to suggest that a burr is a relatively normal consequence of honing.

Nah. I hardly ever see a burr when honing razors unless making multiple strokes on one side without alternating - which is basically what I'd call trying to form a burr - and this will happen no matter the pressure.

Every now and then I see a burr form when honing with alternating strokes but very rarely and only under certain conditions. Namely when using a very fast hone with longer strokes. Pretty much never when using natural stones with any decent amount of slurry though.

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Originally Posted by Kees

As I understand it a wire edge is a burr created by
....

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From time to time I have seen an eyelash on my 8K snow white hone.
Well it was not an eyelash it was a burr from the previous hone.
If you feel something go bump do rinse the hone it is likely a burr that has released.

Burrs at 1k and 2k are effective proof that a bevel has set.
Mostly a burr is steel that has deformed plastically with an edge leading push stroke.

A cork can tear the burr off but the tear may look like a microchip.
This may not be ideal for a razor. Your experience will tell you more.

Tricks like the pyramid method of honing solve some of this.
Pyramids for sure minimize a long eyelash or hair like burr for me.

Modern hones cut so well that a light touch is productive and avoids this issue.

Countdown honing helps minimize burrs and helps release any burr.

Light edge trailing strokes can release burrs before changing grits.

Stropping can break them off by alternating bending and like bending
a coat hanger steel will work harden then break. These broken bits I find
give me a harsh shave but CrOx calms them down.

Modern ceramic fine grit waterstones like Naniwa and Shapton are amazing.
The Norton combo is not too bad either.