If a razor is undercutting fantastically on one side but not so well on the other should the poor side be worked more than the side that is undercutting like mad?
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If a razor is undercutting fantastically on one side but not so well on the other should the poor side be worked more than the side that is undercutting like mad?
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Keep it even until they perform the same. If you work one side more your bevel will be skewed, you want to keep them as even as possible.
You could try lightly killing the edge on your finger nail in the hopes of bringing both sides together at the same time. It is more common for me to have an area of the blade, like heel or toe, not undercutting, than one side. In any event, if you are not getting an even undercut your bevel is not set, which means it is not formed into a perfect 'V', likely more like a lopsided 'U'. I find a 30x loupe to be my best determining method for deciding when I need to move up or how I need to adjust my honing. Also, how is the hone wear? Are you using tape?
When I get this issue, it's usually because I am using different pressure on the away stroke versus the towards stroke. Also, when I am handholding a stone, it is usually at a light angle and doesn't undercut in one direction.
If one side is done and the other is not there yet, I don't' think killing the edge will change that. You just have to keep going till both bevels meet. At that point both sides will undercut the water.
Its a brand new razor. Not using tape. Im learning how to hone on it. I free hand knives all the time and would consider myself pretty good at it but with razors, which I thought would be a lot easier, have their own little quirks. I'm finding that equal pressure plays a big role. I can feel the edge changing after one sloppy stroke so I'm guessing consistency is the key here. I tried to set the bevel but maybe I didn't go long enough. Not sure if both sides were undercutting with the 1k.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Razors are definitely NOT a lot easier than free-handing knives; in fact, they can be a lot harder, or at least trickier, and you have to pay much closer attention to see/feel/hear if you are doing it to the desired effect. I have experienced the one side thing. Just keep honing both sides all along the bevel until you are undercutting equally on both sides.
Learning to read "the wave" as I call it was one of the milestones for me in razor honing.
It means you are using uneven pressure while honing
Using uneven pressure while honing without tape as a beginner, most often leads to twice the issues :(
Read the Wave is absolutely correct if you lose the wave you are no longer honing correctly.. There are actually two forces at work when honing..
Pressure
Torque
You have to learn to adjust them to keep that wave /undercutting even at all times
What do you mean by "lose the wave"?
Reading / Riding that wave adjusts pressure and torque for you while honing
As you set the bevel the wave will be more in front of the edge and because of the bevel irregularities you will need to apply more pressure & torque to keep it there EVENLY throughout the stroke..
As the edge gets "sharper" and the bevel gets smoother the wave will begin to undercut and ride up on the blade face, you will dial down the Pressure and Torque to keep it EVEN as you do each stroke..
As you get into the finishing aspect of honing the Pressure and Torque will be very light because the edge will want to almost suction to the hone, but the undercut of that wave needs to stay even as you do each stroke
If you lose the wave because you are either not Torquing toward the edge or you are wrongly applying downward pressure and the water goes UNDER the edge you are no longer honing you are just wasting steel or worse honing right behind the bevel and wrecking your earlier work
Reading that wave as stated above will keep everything correct
Tape is important for people new to honing razors. The tendency is to put way too much pressure on the spine in it wears faster than the edge and it messes up the geometry. Then you are forever trying to chase an ever changing bevel angle. Tape makes learning to hone easier and safer for razors and a single layer of tape does not have a profound impact on the sharpening angle.
On the subject of "torquing", would it be better to torque the blade to focus some attention on lets say the toe of the blade or would it be better to just keep honing using equal pressure until it's sorted out?Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Torquing the blade from my perspective is the marginal amount of twisting pressure used to ensure that the pressure applied during honing is focusing the energy on the edge and not the blade as whole.
Pressure and torque are extremely subtle energies applied.
As an example to how little pressure is needed to cut steel, on a wet hone push the puddle back and forth using as little pressure on the hone as possible keep lightening up until the water or puddle disappears under the blade, that is the point in which you are no longer removing metal with the hone. As you apply more pressure, apply just enough to begin moving a little puddle in front of the blade. That is the starting of honing. As you apply more pressure you are starting to cut a little faster, and then you start to flex the blade and the very tip of the bevel rides up above the hone and you at that point are no longer honing the edge and just removing metal from the shoulder. I live a long way from another straight razor shaver. In the beginning is was me and YouTube videos. I later got to a meet and learned way more in two days of hanging out honing razors than in many many hours spent honing on my own. There are many tiny subtleties to honing that are difficult to learn on your own. If you can get to a meet...
Sometimes, with a warped or smiling edge, if "the wave" or maybe a sharpie test tells you you are just not hitting the heel or toe, some corrective work is necessary. Very light circles and Japanese-style back and forths on a stubborn toe or heel, followed by x-strokes to even it all out, will usually bring it into line. As the majority of my razors are smilers to some degree, I do a lot of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuggetz
The torquing to heel or toe (accomplished with a tiny amount of pressure to the tip or rear of the thumb holding the shank) is a useful technique, but should be very light and subtle. Somebody watching (who doesn't hone razors) would never know you are doing it. I would start with a sharpie test along the edge and a couple of strokes to see the results: any marker left behind, or if the wave is not being pushed ahead or undercut-you aren't hitting the hone there. I'ts usually pretty obvious, and often the previous hone-wear along the spine and bevel will tell you where past issues have plagued a honer (or else a poor honer has caused the issue with TOO much torque on the toe-you see this a lot on vintage razors!). I have seen a number of YouTube videos that show this corrective action as part of the process. Sitting down with an experienced razor honer would help tremendously if you can orchestrate or find a meetup near you-most are glad to help and actually enjoy teaching new guys.
Ultimately, these kinds of subtle corrective actions during the honing process are mostly done by feel, and take some experience and very close, sensitive observation of how the process is progressing to know that you are achieving the desired effect. I have had blades plague me for hours, even multiple sessions on the bevel set as I get one area "there" and lose another until that one little subtle thing different gets me over. Every blade I hone teaches me something new-I've got an old honed-out Wade and Butcher American razor with just massive hone wear that has been in my to-do pile for like 3 years; it intimidates me that much after several frustrating sessions. But I just know that, one session soon I will get mad about it, put xxx layers of tape on the spine, and nail it!
Let us know how it comes out. Aaron
Thats all good info guys. And yes I agree you cannot get that from watching Youtube videos and no one really explains what they're doing so new comers think that you just move the blade around the stone and its sharp. I get that and sorta of figured some of that out with some of my honing sessions. Main thing I'm trying to fix now is the undercut on one side of the blade that just doesn't swoop over like the other side does. I gave it another go and this time really focusing on the consistency of my strokes and ensuring that adequate pressure is applied towards the edge and it seems like it started to come around. Had to stop cuz I have to get back to work but this does require a lot more concentration that one is lead to believe simply by "Youtubing" it.
Whereabouts in Chi-town are ya?
Near the midway airport area :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnermint
Just a quick thought on the subject, make sure the blade is clean, maybe wipe it off with a little alcohol on a paper towel. If there is metal polish, wax, silicone on the blade it changes the undercut. When I get a pitted eBay special I clean the rust out of the pits and give it a coat of Renwax to seal the pits. No undercut at all.
Cheers, Steve
Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
I actually had that happen today, was honing a razor and what I have been doing lately is stropping after the 4/8K and checking the HHT and after the 4K I took it to the linen/leather and the undercut has been excellent before stropping but when going to the 8K it was almost non existent for several minutes, not sure if there was an issue with the blade but it did the same after the 8K but the finished HHT after coming off my JNAT finisher and stropping was excellent.
So is it possible it picked up some oils and such off the strop ?
Possible, some strops are oil tanned and if you rub your hand on the strop, there's maybe 'fingerprint' oil on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnatcat
Cheers, Steve
Yes the strop I used was a Scruppleworks oil tanned strop with flax linen and I rubbed it briskly before using like alwaysQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve56