Why do I get better edges with tape?

Pretty new to honing, about 8 months under my belt with mostly mixed results. I cannot understand why I only get really nice edges when I use tape. I am guessing the problem is the bevel but I don't know for sure.

Recently I set the bevels w/o tape on a bunch of fleabay specials (all of which I have had shave well with when hone using tape): a flat 1k chosera, circles, x strokes etc. until easily shaving arm hair and shaving the skin off a tomato with little effort all along the blade. Never understood the thumbpad test; all pass thumbnail test to the best of my understanding. Then I moved to flat 3k and 8k naniwa superstones. By the time I am at 8k only a few x strokes before very sticky feedback, so moved to running water for about 10 strokes.

I figured I was in good shape but by the time I got done with finishing (coticule, jnat, thurigian) only one would pass hht 3. Now I know hht is not a great measure but for me the correlation between a great shave and a nice hht is 100%. Then, frequently I can then add a layer of tape to one that wont shave and refinish on a coticule and I get a good edge, sometimes a great edge.

What is that tape doing that I am not? Has to be the bevel but what is the answer?? more time on the 1k is what I am guessing.

anyways, huge fan of the forum and welcome to any suggestions

cheers

If you only are adding tape at the end, then you are creating a microbevel. You also are increasing the likelihood that the hone is cutting the very apex of the bevels.

But even if I start from the beginning with tape I get better results. How can increase the likelihood that the hone is cutting the apex w/o tape?

What's the hang-up with using tape in the first place? My mentor taught me to hone using tape, and he also uses tape for his customer's blades. I just don't see anything to be gained from not using tape. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Speedster

What's the hang-up with using tape in the first place? My mentor taught me to hone using tape, and he also uses tape for his customer's blades. I just don't see anything to be gained from not using tape. :shrug:

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no hangups but I do tire of switching it out when setting bevels. I just think my technique is "off" still.

Could you be torquing the razor differently when you are not using tape? I'm assuming these fleabay razors do not have significant hone wear.

:popcorn:............

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Originally Posted by Speedster

Could you be torquing the razor differently when you are not using tape? I'm assuming these fleabay razors do not have significant hone wear.

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well that's my suspicion:torque on the blade. I work hard to get even bevel's so thats an issue with me. I feel like I don't use much torque towards the hone out of fear of uneven wear etc. It seems that a bit of torque is needed from my readings and searches. practice practice practice i guess...

thanks for the feedback to all

a bit more pressure or torque on the lower grit stones could help. making sure you are getting full contact at the apex of the edge while honing is key. maybe try the sharpie test on your next blade and see what kind of contact you are getting. if the sharpie is wearing off evenly and completely you're making good, consistent contact.

One thing to consider is bevel angle. Putting a Dovo on a very fine and fast jnat I can go too far and the edge becomes fragile. Add tape and increase the angle and the problem gets better.

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Originally Posted by cugel

no hangups but I do tire of switching it out when setting bevels. I just think my technique is "off" still.

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How often do you have to change tape when you use it?

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Originally Posted by Speedster

Could you be torquing the razor differently when you are not using tape? I'm assuming these fleabay razors do not have significant hone wear.

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With tape could you be worried less about spine wear and twisting the blade less to the edge?

I think tape makes you work more on the outer apex of your bevel, which is thinner and per theory easier to sharpen, it changes the angle a bit


IME 1 layer of tape can make a difference for your razor bevel to make good contact with the stone, where without that layer of tape it takes longer to get the entire edge right, with tape it gets a little easier and a little faster, at least for the times I tried it when coloring in the bevel.

Not sure if the tape adds anything extra to the edge besides speeding up the sharpening process, I don't see why it would

I know of people setting a bevel and refining without tape and adding a layer of tape to finish on, due to the slow finishing characteristics of certain stones where that layer of tape makes it easier to finish because of the secondary bevel you create


So, shortly put, I don't know why you would get better edges with tape than without, besides not spending enough time on the stones without tape

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Originally Posted by 32t

How often do you have to change tape when you use it?



With tape could you be worried less about spine wear and twisting the blade less to the edge?

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I change the tape when it starts to show clear wear.

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Originally Posted by cugel

But even if I start from the beginning with tape I get better results. How can increase the likelihood that the hone is cutting the apex w/o tape?

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Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your original post. I thought you only were adding tape as a correction after you were not satisfied with the edge after the original non-taped honing.

One of two things

Likely

#1 The feel, there is a difference in the feel,, the tape makes the stroke smoother (or should) which is also giving you a smoother stroke especially at the higher grit with less pressure or
Smoother stroke = Better edge :)


Unlikely

#2 You are wearing the spine and "Chasing" the edge as you are honing, this is most often seen with older Sheffield razors with excessive wear in the first place but I have seen some pretty tore up new Dovo's honed without tape usng heavy hands :(


The very idea that 1 layer of tape that changes the angle less than 1° on less than 1~ micron of edge is going to make a noticeable difference simply doesn't track..


Your razor your face your penny's worth of tape your choice :p

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

One of two things

Likely

#1 The feel, there is a difference in the feel,, the tape makes the stroke smoother (or should) which is also giving you a smoother stroke especially at the higher grit with less pressure or
Smoother stroke = Better edge :)


Unlikely

#2 You are wearing the spine and "Chasing" the edge as you are honing, this is most often seen with older Sheffield razors with excessive wear in the first place but I have seen some pretty tore up new Dovo's honed without tape usng heavy hands :(


The very idea that 1 layer of tape that changes the angle less than 1° on less than 1~ micron of edge is going to make a noticeable difference simply doesn't track..


Your razor your face your penny's worth of tape your choice :p

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good points. I will see what I can come up with with more practice tonite. I think its most likely less than optimal stroke x less than optimal pressure x less than optimal torque = not a great edge. Maybe the tape is smoothing the stroke. A lot of these razors are showing pretty weird spine wear, some from me to be sure, but the bevels seem decent and straight.

Well I took those razors that wouldnt shave, used a layer of tape and went back to 8k then finished two on a thuringian and two on a coticule. Clear improvement in HHT for all razors after the microbevel etc. Will shave test tomorrow. My only explanation is that my initial bevels w/o tape ain't nothing to write home about.

"Why do I get better edges with tape?"

You don't. It's a myth.

True story

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Originally Posted by earcutter

"Why do I get better edges with tape?"

You don't. It's a myth.

True story

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well what I was trying to say is that something is off on my technique so that only adding tape could save it. I was not trying to say that in general tape is better. Its masking (no pun intended) my mistake(s).

Well here is an update for those who are interested. As expected all finished using tape are more or less shave ready. I got a very nice shave this AM.

Some of the guys here have been honing a lot longer than I have, but I always am able to get great edges without using tape as long as the blade grind is extra hollow, full hollow or bellied. With half hollow and quarter hollow blades, honing without tape can be done; but because the bevel width is wider than with a full hollow, it takes a lot longer to hone all the way to the apex. With a wider bevel, the pressure of the hone is distributed across a wider surface, so the PSI is lower and the effectiveness is lower. To compensate, you have to either apply more pressure, or hone for more strokes. Of course, if you have a full wedge, you have to remove metal from the entire surface of the blade unless you use one or more layers of tape.

I like to do a touch up honing on a finishing stone every few shaves (just a few strokes). Thus, I would rather not use tape unless I have to do so; it is just an extra step I try to avoid. Also remember that the vinyl electrical tape commonly used when honing was not invented until the 1940s. This was well after the invention of the safety razor and the demise of many straight razor manufacturers.

Coincidentally, I recently had a hard time getting a shave ready edge on a quarter hollow. I must have slurried up my c12k a dozen times, trying again and again to get a nice edge, but hht and the shaves always ended horribly. Today I put on some tape, 50 laps with no pressure and the hht is spectacular. I'm looking forward to the shave tomorrow.

When people here talk about torque toward the edge, is that something that should be done on all grits, or only on the finisher? Or only during bevel set? My thinking was to only put some torque when finishing, in order to make sure to reach the very apex (resulting in some kind of barely detectable microbevel - like with a tape), but maybe I'm doing it the wrong way around and the added flex to the blade stops me from hitting the apex all the way?

Like overall pressure, torque is reduced as you get closer to finishing.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Like overall pressure, torque is reduced as you get closer to finishing.

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Thanks :)
I guess I've been doing it wrong all along. :banghead:
I lessened the pressure as I was moving up the grit, but at the same time tried to torque it more. No wonder my edges always took a lot of work to get to a bare minimum of usability.

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Originally Posted by RayClem

With half hollow and quarter hollow blades, honing without tape can be done; but because the bevel width is wider than with a full hollow, it takes a lot longer to hone all the way to the apex. With a wider bevel, the pressure of the hone is distributed across a wider surface, so the PSI is lower and the effectiveness is lower. To compensate, you have to either apply more pressure, or hone for more strokes. Of course, if you have a full wedge, you have to remove metal from the entire surface of the blade unless you use one or more layers of tape.

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Yes but no


The bevel isn't wider unless the wear on the spine is excessive

If you take an NOS Sheffield near wedge that hasn't had 150 years of bad honing on it with an intact factory spine the resulting edge will be just as tiny and perfect as any full hollow grind. Yes really it will

It is simply geometry nothing more

Full wedge, A fully flat blade is a very rare bird, I have seen blades with excessive wear that seem fully flat, but to find them without any grind at all is a rare blade, over 30000 razors have crossed my hones in the last 11 years professionally, I have seen ONE, and I am pretty sure it was a Blank that slipped out before final grind.


JME

Torque & Pressure

Just learn to watch the ripple of water at the front of the edge, it should either be at the front of the edge, (low grits) on riding up onto the edge or undercutting (higher grits)

Use the LEAST amount of torque and pressure to ride that wave from start to finish

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

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Originally Posted by lookingatpictures

Thanks :)
I guess I've been doing it wrong all along. :banghead:
I lessened the pressure as I was moving up the grit, but at the same time tried to torque it more. No wonder my edges always took a lot of work to get to a bare minimum of usability.

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I need to clarify...

This concept of torque always is hard to clarify. Don't think of it as an actual rotational torque. Instead, just focus on putting pressure on the edge and not on the spine. The spine is an angle guide so it needs to maintain contact with the hone but you don't need to remove any steel from the spine, only the bevel.

Thanks a lot guys, just shaved with the "taped razor" and it wasn't perfect but way better than the last shave. Then I took the razor, went back to 6k to erase the microbevel and then slurried up the cnat again and went through the dilutions with gradually less pressure and I didn't even try to torque anything like I did before. The blade is tree topping my arm hair with a nice popping sound and I'm hopeful that the next shave will be even better than the one today. I finally feel like I'm on the right path, what a relief.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

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Nice reminder. On a couple of mine, I undercut the wave easily with no torque on the towards-me stroke, but the wave slides under the blade on the away stroke... Unless I apply torque... Blade geometry? Or a function of the bevel I initially set? Any other advice?
Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Torque & Pressure

Just learn to watch the ripple of water at the front of the edge, it should either be at the front of the edge, (low grits) on riding up onto the edge or undercutting (higher grits)

Use the LEAST amount of torque and pressure to ride that wave from start to finish

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

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I think I lost count at 2 video's you've done illustrating tape vs no tape, and the fact that it makes no difference other than protecting the spine from excessive wear.

You also quite adamantly point out, change the tape at each stone progression.

I've always used tape simply to protect the spines on my razors, and remember speed kills, too much pressure kills, don't necessarily count strokes, it's done when it's done.

Nothing like a razor coming off the stones and for a new shave.

Still the funniest vid I've seen of yours, if the 30k finishing video, 4 laps and done...more time to set the camera up, or wet the stone, or put the tape on the razor, then it did to finish it....

That, and the guy who sold his 30k stone because he found a better one to sharpen his lawnmower blades.....his description of wanting his lawn exactly flat was hilarious!!

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Originally Posted by 32t

How often do you have to change tape when you use it?



With tape could you be worried less about spine wear and twisting the blade less to the edge?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I need to clarify...

This concept of torque always is hard to clarify. Don't think of it as an actual rotational torque. Instead, just focus on putting pressure on the edge and not on the spine. The spine is an angle guide so it needs to maintain contact with the hone but you don't need to remove any steel from the spine, only the bevel.

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I think that we are trying to say the same or at least similar.

The spine is a guide and you don't want to wear that down at least to fast compared to the edge. Therefore less pressure on the spine.

If you replace your tape very often you are still placing more pressure on the spine than needed or wanted.

When using tape the average person doesn't want to replace it often so it makes them change the pressure on the spine.

Although I still replace tape as I go on one blade I do it very less often than when I started. :hmmm:

This has been a wonderful thread, not that I should have expected anything different, but I always anticipate a bit of :popcorn: when there is the word "tape" in the subject line. Instead, what we have is a discussion that is wonderfully helpful to someone such as myself who is still quite early in their pursuit of proper honing.

I had not previously considered the difference that the smoothness of the tape might make in my stroke. Actually, I'm still spending quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to make my "towards" stroke equal and opposite of my "away" stroke. My "away" stroke seems somewhat akin to trying to write my name with my non-dominant hand. If there are any secrets to making that a reality, I'm all ears.

I tend to use my off hand index finger as a guide on the tip of the spine over the toe, not applying downward pressure, but just slightly pushing blade in the intended direction. This has been helpful to me, but I'm also concerned about picking up bad habits.

Thanks all :)

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Originally Posted by cwomg

This has been a wonderful thread, not that I should have expected anything different, but I always anticipate a bit of :popcorn: when there is the word "tape" in the subject line. Instead, what we have is a discussion that is wonderfully helpful to someone such as myself who is still quite early in their pursuit of proper honing.

I had not previously considered the difference that the smoothness of the tape might make in my stroke. Actually, I'm still spending quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to make my "towards" stroke equal and opposite of my "away" stroke. My "away" stroke seems somewhat akin to trying to write my name with my non-dominant hand. If there are any secrets to making that a reality, I'm all ears.

I tend to use my off hand index finger as a guide on the tip of the spine over the toe, not applying downward pressure, but just slightly pushing blade in the intended direction. This has been helpful to me, but I'm also concerned about picking up bad habits.

Thanks all :)

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It's a great journey, and there is nothing like having a shave with an edge you've perfected for yourself, that you learn after awhile just how you like the edge, exactly how many strokes after the stones to use on some CROX.

I'm going to link to a thread I posted awhile ago, a great little project, and something I still find to be incredibly useful, after the finishing stones, and if you even need a touch up.

https://straightrazorpalace.com/stro...ing-board.html

@cwong - what you're describing is, "honing gymnastics", each razor is unique, and requires a different touch and approach. I've had razors that I thought would take hours to bevel set and progress to finishing stones take an hour, and others that I thought would be easy, took me two days, frustration sets in, and get up and walk away.

Glen's videos, as well as others help an awful lot as well as I'm sure you know....

And then enjoy the journey into HAD.....nothing like an Escher edge on a razor IMO....