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Total newbie question here:
I've heard many people talk about honing (or stropping) their str8's in an 'X' pattern. I have also seen a few video clips / animations depicting this, so I totally understand the concept. However, it seems to me that this would lead to uneven sharpening of the blade, as the heal of the blade has very little contact with the hone while the point has considerably more. :shrug:
Any insight on this would be helpful!
- Ken -
This is a very common question here, and a very good one; in fact I remember asking this same question J. In theory you are right; however, in practice it does not really matter. One theory as to why this is not an issue is that the heal receives more pressure because it is closer to where the weight of your hand is. The heal of the blade gets slightly more pressure and the toe gets slightly more contact with the hone but the least amount of pressure so it roughly evens out in the end. Of course this theory only holds up if you are a one handed honer which to my knowledge all of the honemeisters are. In my experience thick and thin hones work equally well and will produce the same edge. It really comes down to what feel you prefer, what sizes the stone is available in, and how much you are willing to spend.
And to add to heavyduty's reply, you can mitigate the heel/toe effect by adopting a "rolling" X pattern - while the blade is making an X pattern in the horizontal plane, you also make a "U" pattern in the vertical plane.
Some people say it's only good for smiling blades, but I've had good results using it on non-smilers too. YMMV.
James.
Honing, in theory I think, is pretty simple. And when your thinking about setting a bevel and even just basic sharpening you can go straight down the hone. When your really trying to apply the fin to the edge you want the striations aligned evenly (and with an opposing angle on each side of course) for each stroke and if you run down the hone angling the razor it gets wavy because your wrist would need to compensate. With an x pattern your just pulling more and twisting less. Although it sounds hard, in practice its pretty easy.
An x pattern also compensates for the dishing that can occur in the center of the stone a little better too.
You'll see the big wide stones in factories being used to set the bevel and (for the most part) sharpen a razor. Many personal users didn't typically have 3 inch stones.
I think that pressure distribution theory may have some merit as well.
I use an x pattern a lot in honing but not always in the beginning of the process.
You lost me here! Can you explain this in a little more detail? Perhaps closer to an upside "J" then a "U"? :shrug: also; I asume horizonal is left to right, and vertical is up and back. Forgive me, it's my very literal, overactive mind in action here. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Thank, Jim
Steve
I'm with Zepplin here and would like to learn more about the "U's" and "J's". I'm guessing the stroke being described is a rotation with the wrist as a pivot point and while moving the the blade forth or back on the plane of the stone, and while dragging it in the "X" pattern to get the entire edge dragged across the stone, one pivots the blade to get the toe to lead the stroke - all the while maintaining careful contact with the stone so that all movement stays on the plane of the stone surface.
close?????, Bruce
Quote:
Originally Posted by zepplin
You guys aren't the first. It's very simply, but oddly very difficult to explain in words. Superfly did a picture once. It's one of the great gifts to this forum, and should be a sticky. Click here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
Okay, let me take a shot at this:
Starting at the lower end of the hone, with the heel leading, and the blade at an angle, (the tip being lower than the heel) - I slide the razor upward, at the same time pulling the blade to the right, and while performing this motion, I slide the tip upward eventually passing the heel and ending up in the left hand corner(or middle) of the top of the hone, with the toe ending up leading the heel - and ending up with the same angle as I started at the bottom. and, of course I lift the blade edge before completing this stroke, turn the spine to the same angle as on the upstroke and repeate this action on my downstroke. God, I feel so stupid trying to explain this.:rolleyes:
Is this a rolling motion? :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
* Note: There are times when I want to start to with the heel positioned more toward the bottom left, or middle, of the hone, thus, giving me more honing on the heel, but because most razors have a shoulder, I'll get a "bumpty - bump" when I cross over the edge of the hone with the heel section. I get paranoid, thinking "I've screwed up something". A lot of times I start this supposed "rolling motion" (IMO), with the heel on the very right edge of the hone, with the sholder off the hone to the right. - thus, leaving little to not much time for the heel on the hone. To correct this, I will do a "straight up" movement at this beginning of the stroke and then swing to the right the last half of the stroke. * I am honestly trying to figure this all out!! - and I don't know if I'm doing this wrong, or what. That's one reason why I like honing a "sholderless" razor more.
I would appreciate some help from you honing experts, and any suggestions you may have in regard to this "rolling motion" of mine -
Yea, I feel stupid! :confused:
Steve
:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
Um... OK... so I'll just stick with the basic 'X' or straight across for now...
- Ken -
Did you click on superfly's pictures?
To visualize the rolling method, don't think about where the razor is on the hone – left, right, middle, whatever. Focus your thoughts on which part of the razor edge is in contact with the hone at a given moment.
A smiling blade does not lay perfectly flat on the hone. When you place it on the hone, the center part of the edge is in contact; the heel and toe are hovering infinitesimally above the hone. When you "rock" it, the heel and toe come into full contact, each in turn. The "rocking" feeling may be subtle or pronounced, depending on the smile.
Now, imagine a 3"-blade going straight down the middle of a 3" hone – no X'ing. But over the course of that straight-down honing stroke, a single heel-to-toe rocking motion is executed. This rocking would not be detectable from a birds-eye view. A sharp pair of eyes in a front-row seat on the 50-yard line of the honing field would see it. Mostly, though, it's something you feel.
In reality, lots of guys combine the X-stroke with the rock'n'roll, but it's easier to visualize what's happening if you first picture a straight-down stroke.
Oohhhhh... OK... now I think I get it. That seems to make sense for use on a 'smiling blade', but I can't see why that technique would be employed with a 'straight' blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
- Ken -
Let's see if I understand what you are saying: On the upward stroke, I would rock-down with contact on the heel and somewhere in the center of the blade(push slightly down on the scales). Then on the downstroke, I would rock-up (lifting the scale slightly), thus insuring contact with the toe and somewhere in the middle of the blade?
All the while doing these strokes with the heel leading?
Regards,
Steve
Ok, so I'm going to go against the grain here, so to speak, and be the one to call the emperor naked...
For some time I've read about this "rolling" hone technique and really wondered about it??? Nothing in the barbering literature that I've ever read to suggest or support the technique. That doesn't necessarily invalidate it, but...
Now that I've seen that illustration of the "smiling" blade that doesn't lay completely flat on the hone...I've never actually seen a straight razor blade like that. And were I to see a blade that looked as such, with the center of the blade contacting the hone while the point and heel did not, I would consider it either defective or damaged. I certainly would not apply a honing technique that would work to maintain such a condition to the edge. I'd either toss it or have it re-ground.
Now I'm not denying the existence of "smiling" or convex edges on straight razors. That is the ideal shape for a well used razor and I have a few of those. But all of them lay completely flat. In fact, I'm not really sure how a razor could end up in that condition (as illustrated by Superfly) unless it were so worn that the point and heel were honed back almost to the spine? And then I still wouldn't "roll" it while honing.
So there is definately something askew here and I just wanted to throw in my two cents before some of the noobies start screwing up their razors.
Scott
All I can say is I'm looking at my current favorite shaver right now, a 5/8 smiling W&B quarter hollow, and when I lay it down the heel and toe don't touch. I can see the gap; this isn't some sort of Zen/Jedi feeling. And it's not warped at all: I can flip it over on the other side and it's exactly the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
I think what you're saying is sometimes the extent to which the average smilie needs conscious rolling is exaggerated. And maybe "rocking and rolling" is already an exaggerated metaphor, and a dangerous one to throw at noobs. In which case you might be right. But the phenomenon of the gap isn't a hallucination precipitated by Superfly's drawings; in many blades it's real alright. And as far as those old handbooks go, they do talk about putting pressure on the heel at the beginning of the stroke, then going light on the middle, then putting pressure on the toe – which, if you think about it, amounts to the same thing. True, they advise this as a way of putting a smile on a razor and avoiding a frown, but again, the mechanics are the same.
Because the pressure exerted on the blade's contact with the hone is different near the shank where you are holding it that out at the tip where you are not. Many guys will experience a shaving sharp heel and a tip which won't cut a thing. Bu employing a Rolling Hone pressure change up the edge as you advance through the honing stroke, even though there is little or no actual change in the blade's contact with the stone on a truly flat edge, you can effect a more equal response along the entire edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTeeGuy
X
Okay, XMAN, That's exactally what I needed to hear!: The key word being PRESSURE! "employing a rolling hone pressure change up the edge as you advance through the honing stroke."Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
Well, you did it again, XMAN. :bow :bow Why couldn't somebody just say that?
Thanks a million,
Steve
Actually the manuals recommend honing the heel, point and center with special emphasis at each section but at all times keeping the razor flat, but not all attempted during a single X patern stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
In other words, first you emphasize (with more pressure) honing at just the heel with 4 short X pattern strokes on each side, then you reposition the razor so that the point can be honed 4 times on each side with short X strokes, then reposition the razor again and hone the entire blade lightly X pattern style so that the center gets some attention.
The entire time, each section of the razor is held so that both the back and edge contact the hone at the same time. Over time this method will result in a convex "smiling" edge.
It may be possible that this could (on some styles of razors) cause the point and heel to get out of sync with the center, but in that case I still think instead of "rolling" the blade, it would probably be better to continue to hone the blade in sections with the blade kept flat as prescribed by the barber manuals.
I think the problem I am perceiving is that this "rolling" method, as suggested, seems to involve lifting the back, or spine, of the razor up and away from the hone during part of the stroke and that seems incorrect. And I still caution any noobies, who may have interpreted the "rolling honing" as I did, against lifting the spine while honing. If that is not how this honing method is meant to be done, then I stand corrected.
Scott
dylandog,
Thank you for the link to the great graphics. I'd say those pictures were worth many thousands of words. The U's and J's are rocking and rolling now!!
thanks again, Bruce
That may explain why honing in an 'X' pattern does not produce an uneven blade. :hmmm: If the pressure on the heal is greater than that on the point, then the heal may simply not require as much honing, while the point still benefits from the extra 'travel' along the hone. :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
- Ken -
Sorry everyone - I need to remember to choose my words more carefully :o
Xman nailed it when he said it's a pressure transfer along the edge. It's really a tiny, tiny adjustment in edge pressure focus, that's all. I'd suspect it happens naturally as part of an X pattern anyway, in a lot of cases.
Anyway, sorry for the confusion :fim:
James.
Maybe this explains why barber hones were made the size that we find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTeeGuy
Considering that the point should not go below the mid point on the hone, the heel and point actually travel about the same distance on the hone when using the standard 2" wide barber hone and the classic X pattern. And the usual length of a straight razor blade is about 3". If you are using a wider (maybe not straight razor specific) hone, or using a straight across honing technique, this may not apply.
During performance of the X pattern, as the point of the razor is starting to contact the hone, the heel is exiting the bottom edge of the hone. Only if you continue to draw the point past the middle of the hone (longest, or horizontal, axis) will it get more contact time (so, dont - :) ) .
The real trick in honing is learning to keep equal pressure and flat contact all along the edge on both sides. The test for this is the thumb nail. If you find that sharpness is uneven along the edge (sharp heel, duller point, etc.), then you weren't applying equal pressure and/or keeping the razor flat the entire stroke.
Thoughts??
Scott
Exactly my thought...Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Nenad
For those of you who employ the "rolling hone/variable pressure" method, do you typically use one hand, or two?
Andrew
Okay, I think I've got it!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Maybe this word, "rolling" triped us(noobe's) up a bit. You old timers must remember that us new guys don't know Sh*t! So when you use words of phrazes that you think we all know, we don't.
This will help me tremendously when trying to extablish a bevel that differs greatly from one end of the razor to the other. For some reason, and I don't know why, the heel seems to present the biggest fault along the entire line of the bevel when there are "uneven" problems.
That you XMAN, Jimbo, Scott,and everyone else. I have just taken a huge step forward in my knowledge of honing. :bow :bow :bow
Regards,
Steve
Well, I'm with you on the equal pressure idea, defnitely. But I'm wondering whether flat contact is the only way to achieve even pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
I've got no experience with the really narrow hones - is there no weight-tranference (even subtley) at the shank as the middle-to-toe area of the edge comes in contact with the hone?
James.
Probably there is. There are leverage changes too...and that is the challenge to, and the skill of honing, to overcome and manually correct those tendencies. Subtle though they may be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Those who are exceptionally dexterous (think - neuro surgeons, watch makers, etc.) will probably become better at honing than those who are maybe less gifted, but I think anyone who puts the time and effort into it can become proficient at the skill.
Scott
PS - One thing I think that helps is what I mentioned before about not letting the point travel past the mid point on the hone. The more blade that remains in contact with the hone, the more stable it will be and easier to control. Still a challenge though....
Oh, and one other thing - if the straight across method on a wide hone is the most stable, and possibly easier method, does it produce a better edge (parallel striations)? Do the the diagonal striations created by the X pattern provide the better cutting edge? And if you perform the X pattern on a wider hone, then are you more likely to get more contact time on the point as opposed to the heel? ???
Oh yes, and why the thumb nail? Because the thumb nail lays over, and is attached to, one of the most exquisitely sensitive goups of sensory nerve endings in the body. A razor blade can be moved over the nail without pain nor risk of injury allowing you to feel the condition of the honed (not stropped) edge with great accuracy. Oh yeah, go ahead and check it with your face instead....(please don't).
I like that I think I'm going to write henceforward uxing an x in place of an s. Xoundx like a new character quirk. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by zepplin
X
Thatx exactly what I wax thinking. Nicexxxxx.....Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
I'm really new to all this, but have bought myself the 3 inch Norton 4k/8k in order to avoid having to master the X pattern, as I figured that it wouldn't be necessary on this wider hone.
Is that right? Can I just go up and down the hone keeping my razor in the middle?
My SRP razor from Classic Shaving was fabulously honed by Lynn initially, but I think it now needs another go. What's the betting I manage to undo all his hard work?!
I'm planning to use a 3/3 1/3 1/5 pyramid, stop and check. Does that sound good?
Thanks
Nick
Check this thread for my view on the X pattern:Quote:
Originally Posted by Manowar
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...ight=pyramides
cheers,
Nenad