I'm thinking of doing my own honing. Is there a significant learning curve?
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I'm thinking of doing my own honing. Is there a significant learning curve?
How long have you been using a straight? How many razors do you have?
You may only need a 12k finishing hone for touch up.
If you intend to go the full hone you are going to need a few stones and razors to practice on. I would not start on a good razor unless you have a mentor.
Either way it will be costly. If you only have a few razors it is more economical to send them out.
You don't need a mentor (if you have one...great). There is a learning curve but it's not a big deal. If you have a nice razor I agree with the advice not to use that for learning purposes.
I've never sent anything out for honing. I did initially get a cheap razor from Whipped Dog so that I knew what the goal was. I learned on inexpensive vintage razors from Ebay.
You can just get a finishing hone if your existing razor is all you are concerned with. It's more fun to have a full range of hones so that you can buy inexpensive razors on Ebay and make good shavers out of them.
It doesn't have to be expensive. There is film of course but even with hones you can buy small hones. I have a 1k King ($25) which is full size. Everything else is smaller, hand-held in size. I have a 4k slip stone ($25), a 8k slip stone ($25), a small natural finishing hone ($35), a pasted paddle strop ($16 including the paste), and a regular strop ($25).
Film is the only way to get cheaper than that (or staying more limited with only a finishing hone).
You can learn from YouTube, trying things yourself and asking questions here once you have some experience and need some specific advice.
Once you get one razor from scratch shave-ready you will have much less trouble getting there again. It's just removing metal after all. :)
Keep in mind that continuing to send razors out for honing can get expensive and time consuming as well.
If you've ever taught yourself how to do anything else, you can do this as well.
Have you watched any YouTube videos on honing yet?
I learned more from an hour with a mentor as I did from 10 hours of watching videos. All the practice in the world won't help if you're not doing perfect practice.
If you are good with your hands and can get in person instruction, like an experienced member near by or a meet, the curve can be quite short. It is not uncommon that people struggle with it for a little while. The most economical system is if you have someone else do the initially honing and you maintain it with either a finish hone, like the 12k, or if you use a pasted strop. The 12K routine is pretty effective and fairly common on the forum. The outlay for the full progression can be expensive, but if you are into going that route and have the coin it can certainly be time well spent. If you go to a meet there is often a lot of experienced people and you will have the opportunity to try a lot of different equipment.
+1
I learned to hone by watching dozens of YouTube videos and analyzing the good and bad aspects of each video. I adopted the techniques that seem to work for me. However, if you can find someone to tutor you one on one, the learning process will be far easier.
You learn by practice, but be sure you are not practicing poor techniques. A tutor can spot mistakes that you might not even realize you are making.
One critical factor is that you need to be very observant of what is happening as the steel meets stone. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? If you are not paying attention, you should not be honing. You can injure yourself, or damage the razor.
As you hone more razors, you will learn how to evaluate an edge and determine how to get it from its existing condition to where it needs to be. In some cases, that might require a full bevel set and progression. In others, a few strokes on a finishing hone might do the job. That is where experience and practice come into play.
I have honed my 25 razors several times each. I can generally get good edges on my own razors, but I am still looking for the right hone and the right technique to get even better edges. In contrast, the true experts, those we revere as honemeisters, have honed thousands of razors. Every now and then, they still come across a troublesome razor that challenges their skill.
When you learn to hone, do not start with your best razor. I purchased several Gold Dollar/ZY razors and learned to hone them. That way I did not mess up my favorite razor. Once I could get a good shave off these inexpensive, learner razors, I moved on to honing my daily shavers. If I get a new hone (and I have had several), I always test the hone using one of these GD/ZY razors until I figure out which techniques work and don't work with the new hone. The inexpensive GD/ZY razors do not get a lot of style points, but they still shave well enough to remain in my daily rotation.
It's not quite this simple of course but essentially you do most of your work on the 1k bevel set. Once that is done, the rest is gravy. You are just removing deeper scratches with shallower scratches at each step after that. Your potential shave is just getting smoother.
If you test (arm hair or whatever test you choose) at the 1k stage and that test is acceptable, your shave (the ultimate test) is likely to be good. After that you just maintain with a finishing hone or a pasted strop.
For me the learning curve was/is longish and frustrating at times. I learned on my own with no mentor handy and no meets close by. I am sure the learning curve would have been greatly reduced had I access to a mentor and attended meets. There is only so much you can learn from YouTube and being the net not all honing vids contain valid info. Add to that how many times you make the same mistakes till the coin finally drops is another thing but drop it will sooner or later. Should add that by honing I mean taking an old razor, possibly with a chippy edge and some warp or twist, from bevel set to finished edge. It took a while and close to honing 40 razors to get to the point where I can usually get a comfortable 4 pass shave out of my edges. I am sure the edges are not up to pro standards but work well enough for me. So I'd say there is a learning curve and how long/significant it is depends on the individual and the circumstances. In the end it is very satisfying to bring an old razor back to life.
Bob
There is another "truism" that I heard early on. Why buy a used vintage razor for $10 that has a lot of problems when you can buy one that has few problems for $15?:)
It's fun to be able to handle unusual circumstances but unless a razor is rare and valuable there is little reason to have to deal with excessive edge pitting or blade warping or whatever when you can get a much better razor for a similar price since there are literally thousands of razors listed on Ebay at all times.
Sometimes you think you are buying a trouble free razor and when it arrives it has "issues" and then it can be fun to see what you can do but if someone is wondering how hard it is to hone a razor I don't think it's necessary to include how hard it is to hone razors that are in very bad condition.
It's much easier to just not buy razors like that.:)
I learned with junk razors, two barber hones, and a microscope that showed me exactly what was happening every time I put the razor to the hone.
I learned a lot more after finding SRP.
Initially I learned to hone with some NOS razors and three new ones. I sorted through YouTube and found a presenter that I liked and focused on his videos. Some time later I went to a meet, and the progress happened a little faster, then a second meet, where I learned in person from the man that made the videos I watched. This meet was pivotal in everything coming together. I have honed a lot of razors, all of them, even the early NOS and new razors survived and still look and shave great. The use of tape helped those razors a lot I am sure.
Well, when you are just starting off you really aren't aware of what to look for in a razor as far as condition goes and photos on flea bay can be misleading. The up side is that you will learn a hell of a lot more from honing imperfect razors than you will from less flawed ones. That goes to Glen's saying that "honing is easy till it isn't". You seldom forget the lessons the tough ones give you either. The few brand spanking new razors that I have bought all required some degree of honing up and including a bevel set on up. A bit disappointing that was but now I know what to expect from modern factory edges. Yes, good condition razors are easier to hone and build your confidence in honing faster. That is until you get a tough one that will smack beginner the over confidence right out of you.
Bob
True, but a lot of people who are asking for advice have one razor and want to know if they can learn to hone it or if honing is so hard that they have to always send it out to a "professional".
That person has one razor and it isn't that hard to learn to hone that one razor.
The other issue is that most of "us" did learn and therefore the newer person shouldn't be made to feel that they can't do it. We did it so why do "we" advise them to do something different? :)
ive watched this thread and so far i haven't heard anyone say that you cant learn to hone, so lets stop saying it. that's as counterproductive as the point your trying to make. just cause you can hone(although i don't know you can) doesn't mean he will ever learn, probably can, but who knows. not every one can learn. that's a fact. if i can , and you can but he cant,,, is that everyone? ill call up my 6month old granddaughter and have her hone my razors. or my neighbors son with no arms. ok. Tc
As a newbie, the honing light went on for me when I read/realized the following. I’m sure there is a lot more, but keeping these things in mind really helped improve my edges and actually reduced the time I needed to get to shave ready. They certainly reduced the number of times I had to revisit the stones with the same blade.
- For any blade that requires it, setting the bevel is the most important step. Be prepared to spend a lot of time on this step and check progress frequently. I use the arm hair test to determine when I should move on.
- Patiently work through a progression of grits after setting the bevel and check progress frequently before moving up to the next grit. I have never had much success with HHT and use the thumb/finger pad test and my loupe instead. Each to his own.
- ALWAYS MAKE SURE THE SPINE IS ON THE STONE before moving the blade.
- Use your wrist to “torque” the blade slightly to apply some pressure on the edge to the stone and use a light touch finishing each step with only the weight of the blade. I often use my other hand to lightly apply pressure to the nose of the blade to make sure the blade “kisses” the stone evenly along its entire length.
- Clean the blade and stone after each inspection.
- Clear swarf frequently. Clean the blade and your hands before moving to the next stone to avoid cross-contaminating grits.
- Use the lightest touch possible on the finisher. Keep the finisher well lubricated and clean of swarf.
- ALWAYS MAKE SURE THE SPINE IS ON THE STONE.
This works for me and it took me a while to learn without having a mentor to demonstrate and observe what I was doing. Having an experienced someone to coach me in person would have been extremely helpful.
Honing in itself is is not hard, that learning curve is pretty short if you are a little handy and pay attention to what you're doing, once you get the technique down, it's the same for every hone.
The experience curve is longer, learning to feel what you want in an edge and to figure out in what exact shape your edge is and at what stage.
Of course, I think with a microscope (which I do not use) it will be exponentially easier and pretty much foolproof almost, so again, not much of a problem here in the case of a microscope.
(with edges that are not in perfect shape or vintage ones, this will be a more challenging part)
Then it's all about figuring out what finish you like on your razors, that's little experimenting with different finishers, shouldn't be a big learning curve either.
I think the advice for those with one razor has normally been to get others to learn on and send out your one known good razor for honing. That way you don't mess up your one and only razor and gives you a benchmark to judge your tyro honing efforts against. That is not the same as advising them not to learn honing. It's up to the person asking the question to determine for themselves if they want to follow that prudent advice.
With all new endeavours there is a learning curve and ways to shorten it. This is why having a mentor for one on one and/or going to meets is suggested. Again it is up to the person asking the question to determine it is a possibility for them to take advantage of that advice or not.
Nowhere in that advice do I see any thing to indicate to the person asking the question that they should not learn to hone.
Bob
I’m still trying to learn and I think the YouTube videos have been helpful but if there is an experienced honer in NNJ, I would really appreciate some mentoring. I have a 4/8 Norton and a finishing stone (12k, I think) but just can’t seem to get a really good edge yet. At some point I’d like to try my hand at a full restoration but right now, I need to get the basics of honing down.
I’ve been using straights for about 5 years and I have 7 so for me, honing probably makes sense in the long run not to mention I’m a full blow wet shave enthusiast.
If there is anyone in the general area that enjoys teaching, I’d really appreciate your tutelage.
My normal recommendation is to learn to touch up a razor first. When a razor starts to pull the whiskers, you will do 10 "x" strokes on your barber hone or 8+K stone. Strop well and shave. If it restored the edge, great. If not, repeat up to 3 times. If you don't get it back to proper shaving in 3 times at the stones, most likely it will need the bevel reset. Once you have touching up a razor right, then you will have accomplished a few things: Pressure (most important part of honing), keeping the edge and spine on the stone, and simply how it "feels". Many stones give feedback, learning feedback is important.
I can't stress how finding a honing mentor will help you. I am talking someone who is proficient at honing, not necessarily with the "badge" like on here.
Lastly, once you think you are getting it...send a razor to a veteran honer and ask them to shave with it. They can give you feedback on how your edge is and if there is room for improvement they can give you that advice.
No, of course no one says "Don't hone". It's more like, learn to shave first, get a mentor, go to a meet, buy a long line of expensive hones and honing isn't for everyone and there are "honemeisters" out there that you will never be as good as.
Or the constant insistence that someone send a razor out to be honed and then maybe one day they might want to try it themselves.
All that is a valid comment and opinion. It's just one sided. My opinion raises the other side. Honing is fairly easy and most people can do it.
You know that this isn't a sincere discussion when people (not you) start to nit pick the words "anyone can do it" and point out that their 6 month old granddaughter or one armed friend can't do it. :)
You don't, IMO, have to be "handy" (just not a klutz) to hone just like you don't have to be "handy" to change a tire. You just need to learn how to do it. We don't have tire meisters. Honing is what it is. You learn to shave without having to go to the barbers for a while first. You just jump in. You can do that with honing as well.
You don't have to but you can. Everyone on this or any other forum does have to have the same opinion on every subject either.
Well, I certainly disagree with you.
You are correct in that we do not tell people "Don't hone." There is a simple reason for that. For most users of straight razors honing is an integral part of the use of a straight razor.
Learn to shave first? Of course you should learn to shave first. What would be the point in learning how to sharpen a tool that you don't know how to use? How could you possibly evaluate your sharpening skills if you cannot assess the sharpening that you did. Learning to shave first simply makes sense.
Get a mentor, go to a meet? Absolutely. I lost count after the last Asheville meet-up, but I'm guessing that I have been to about 40 meet-ups by now. Have you ever been to one? If you have, then the odds are good that you have seen beginners absolutely delighted by the "aha moments" that they get when having the opportunity to see how to do this stuff in person. One that comes to mind is when I showed a guy the correct side to use on a Shapton GlassStone. Getting help in person makes a huge difference. I have seen experienced honers learn new things at meet-ups. I remember Lynn at the Asheville meet-up practically giggling after trying something new that he just couldn't wait to show me. We all learn from each other and it is a lot easier to do that in person. Regarding mentors, when the concept first came around I was against it. I did not like the idea of some members' opinions somehow being perceived as more relevant than that of someone else, but they do serve a purpose. They are an opportunity for beginners to privately ask questions from a single person when they are not comfortable asking on the open forum. It happens a lot. Mentors are an available resource to be used as much or as little as any member wishes, just like the rest of this forum.
Buy a long line of expensive hones? Where did you get this? The common suggestion here is to buy ONE hone when starting out with honing. That is by far the most common suggestion. The fact that sometimes more hones are recommended is due to varied opinion here because, as you should have noticed by now, opinions here often vary.
No, honing is not for everyone. Some people simply don't want to do it. Other, just plain give up before they got the hang of it. Some people catch on quickly and some take longer. I know a guy who has been honing for years and yet is still struggling to do it well. We never tell anyone that they cannot hone. We tell them it will take practice and whether they get the hang of it or not is up to them. I will repeat however, that getting help in person does in fact help most people learn to hone better and faster.
You never will be as good as honemeisters out there? Really? I've never seen that claim. I actually detest the term. Lynn was jokingly and lovingly named the honemeister by a friend long passed. In my opinion that term belongs to no one but him. People who hone are honers in my book. Whether or not they hone well is up to their own and others' opinions, but I have never seen the claim that anyone does not have the potential to be a proficient honer.
By the way, we do have a very good one armed honer on this forum.
Regarding the "constant insistence" of sending out a razor to be honed, do you have any idea how many people have been screwed over when they bought Sweeney Todd, Zeepk, Master, or Lucas Webster crap razors? They thought straight shaving would be cool but then when they paid their money and tried to shave, it didn't work at all and so too many of them gave up. The exact same thing too often happens when they buy a decent razor and try to sharpen it themselves. They don't know how to shave and they don't know how to hone. Without a decent tool and remaining self-sufficient, they simply give up. Sending out a razor for assessment and/or honing at least takes away that variable. That is why many of us often offer to check out beginners' razors for free. We are trying to help. Ensuring the razor is ready to go at least gives them a chance to figure out how to shave. Of course, they wouldn't need to send the razor out if they could find a local mentor or attend a meet-up where they could both get their razor honed and better learn how to hone for themselves.
You disagree with me and that's fine, but I don't think your blanket statements about what you consider to be the standard party lines here are correct. Oh well.
I suggest that you do an advanced search on a long-gone member here. Read the threads started by ProfessorShak. He thought honing was easy. He did not need to follow any advice here. He couldn't hone his razors and eventually sold all of his razors and hones because he refused to accept help or advice. He also refused to let me hone one of his razors for free. Oh well.
really,, son, i have as much relevance to this discussion as you, your constant attitude has been to stir the pot. and now you think i don't have the right to say what i want to say, go back to the facebook page and spread that crap.. and furthermore, my granddaughter can hone better than you Tc
I taught myself to hone. I bought a selection of stones and a couple of junk razors and figured it out. I might have spent a total of 6 or 8 hours on the bench before I 'got it'.
I did read some instructions somewhere. I didn't watch any videos. I didn't know there were any.
There is some technique involved but it ain't rocket science. No reason to get all worked up about it.
:beer1:
Many pick it fairly easily. It’s not rocket science.
However if we all stated that honing is super easy and every idiot can hone, what are we then saying to and about those struggling? It remains that some pick it up easily and others require more time and help. There are a ton of things like that in life. If everyone found honing to be super easy we would not have a string of threads all about I’m having trouble honing and need some help. It would also never be the main topic at most meets. The fact remains, people all are different. Don’t shut out those that may be struggling with a smug attitude because you can do it and did not need help.
It's just my opinion that you may be discouraging new shavers from attempting to accomplish simple tasks, by making them seem all but insurmountable.
You're making a figurative mountain out of a mole-hill.
:shrug:
I'm not shutting anyone out nor am I talking about myself. Quite the contrary. I'm letting those know, who are asking, that it isn't hard to pick up. If someone posts that they have been having trouble you will not see me respond that it's easy and that they must be an idiot.
You seem to have issues with there being more than one viewpoint on this subject. You also seem to feel the need to imply that I am demonstrating personal characteristics that are clearly coming from you.
It took me a long while to get passable at honing. I taught myself how to hone and was happy with my results, until I met Randy Tuttle he helped me achieve a better edge. I have made many small incremental steps in my honing ability, some through trail and error, but most from learning from somebody in person. Randy, Lynn, Ron, have all spent time with me and taught me.
I have also learned a lot from watching others hone. Glenn's tape, no tape demonstration at a meet was eye opening for me. Watching Sham and Modine hone also taught me a bit. Watching Scott hone on his shaptons was also a learning opportunity.
If you think you have it all figured out then you are not learning any more.
My learning curve and skills have improved by learning from other people, be it one on one, or just watching the way they work.
If you're interested in honing, you should give it a try. It's fun or can be fun, and you don't need any other reason than that.
Videos can be useful but they're usually bad at several things that are critical to honing, like how to know when when the bevel is set. Usually I do this at the earliest stages by inspection with a good 5-7x loupe. But you also need to be able to determine an unset bevel from a wire edge, how to hone off that wire edge, etc.
Videos are also not good at teaching you the proper amount of pressure and how to bias that pressure from heel to toe during the stroke, a critical skill since most straight razors are not straight. I like to call this 'pressure management'. When I mentor someone about pressure, I have them hold a barber-size stone on their hand and then I hone a few strokes on it. They can feel the amount of pressure and feel the stone move as the pressure moves from heel to toe during the stroke. The light goes on and they can usually come pretty close pretty quickly. This is actually pretty clumsy but you only need a few seconds to communicate the idea.
You can learn to sucessfully hone without a mentor, I did about 10 years ago, but your razors will suffer much less with a mentor! If you can't get face-to-face with one, arrange to send some edges for critique as you go through the process - it's the next best thing. Mentor-by-mail lol. I'm glad to help if I can.
Good luck on your quest and welcome to the honing world!
Cheers, Steve
Going to a meet is good for beginners
BUT
Those of us that teach at them usually learn way more
We learn that there is a huge difference in perception between what we Type on here and FB, and what we show on YouTube when it comes down to putting steel to stone..
When I started out with a straight this site didn't exist and neither did face book or you tube or me tube or whatever you call them.
The only resource was the old Yahoo Groups Site (SRP) and advice was dispensed via disjoint posts and friendly advice. It wasn't easy and it took much practice and I probably ruined some eboy specials but in the end I learned to maintain my own razors and bring some others back from the dead.
So, sure anyone who has the desire can learn. Some find it easier than others and other simply have no interest in it.
These days it's much easier with all the resources we have.
Just a parting thought here, remember this site is a place for GENTLEMEN to come together and discuss aspects of this skill-hobby. All opinions are welcome and they all deserve respect.
CHOD !!!!! Tc:rock:
CHOD?! :shrug:
For the OP, do you think honing is something that you will take up in support of your shaving hobby?
To the OP, The learning curve is different for all of us.
TBH, some mechanical prowess is beneficial to begin. If none exists, it will have to be developed. Learning from videos done by good teachers of conventional methods is good as you must see how things are accomplished so you can emulate them. Also, different razors require different techniques. Knowing when to employ them is where experience comes-in.
As has been said, hands-on from someone more experienced is best. Sadly, it is not always possible to find a willing tutor nearby or a local meet to make.
Then there is the issue (blatant in this thread?) of those who try to help in a way a new guy can understand versus others who know 'everything' (nobody does!) to come along and undermine this showing off their 'vast' knowledge and nay-saying BEGINNERS advise given.
This is why I seldom participate in honing discussions. Things can get argumentative as this happens. I am self-taught by learning who is knowledgeable and who is not and being attentive to the more senior members and studying their posts.
Lots of trial and error is, of course, involved. It is quite rewarding as you learn what is written about subjects such as pressure and types of strokes.
After being in the game for 20-odd years, I have yet to actually sit and learn from another who has learned more than I, yet would be happy to.
After all, we are all learning every day!
If you wish to PM me, I would share some things I have used and watched as well as some to pay particular attention to as you progress.
If I typed my journey here, It would be long and guaranteed to draw rebukes and criticisms from those who have few post counts and know it all.
Yet it would genuinely be all I know! :rofl2:
Best I can do to help....