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I have a Theirs Issard 5/8th. Marked acier c135 ( via art of shaving)
I understand the newer steel formula is supposed to be harder and harder to sharpen.
I think I’ve spent 2x the time on this razor, While it is a passable shave, it is not as sharp at the rest of the razors in my stable.
Did I find the max sharpness for this steel?
Keep on honing?
Any suggestions?
(Finishing on translucent ark)
Most of the razors I've seen from AOS had to have the bevel set. After that they honed up nice and sharp.
And yes, TIs are hard steel.
All the TIs I’ve had shave extremely well. If it isn’t shaving well and you are not experienced at honing, I’d send it out the first time to make sure that the bevel is properly set. The steel is on the hard side, but no big deal really.
I have two TI's that were an absolute bear to hone. Yes, the bevel was the issue initially but I had to rock back and forth between grits to slowly bring it up. It took a lot of effort to get there and I had to keep it on a stone a lot longer than normal to get the same level of sharpness. I get very apprehensive about the 12k. It is a fast cutting stone that can get away from you if you're not careful. But I was doing a lot of laps on it before it did its job. They both shave great now. But getting them there was not easy. What I would advise is not to grind away forever on the 1k if the edge is rejecting it. I found that the 8k was my friend. I did a lot of polishing with slurry on the 8k. The slurry cuts without creating teeth.
I’ve had 3 recent TI’s and all needed a bevel set. All the bevels were a little wider than I would like on a new razor but they all shaved beautifully. They take a long lasting smooth and sharp edge. I don’t remember taking more than a “normal” amount of time to set the bevels. Definitely at the pre polishing and finishing stages it took a little longer than say a Sheffield, more like about a normal run of the mill Torrey or Genco. If your bevel is set you may not have stayed long enough on your next stone in your progression. I lightly joint my edge after the initial bevel set then set it again with a few light strokes to make sure I’ve gotten rid of any burr created. Helps get rid of the teeth from the burr coming off and then you’re not doing anything corrective after coming of the bevel setter, just polishing.
C135 is pretty hard steel. A diamond plate would make the job go much faster as it will cut that steel easily. You only have to do it once.
Check out this thread. TI's seem to have quite a few qualitiy issues. https://sharprazorpalace.com/razors/...rs-issard.html
I have one that I can only get to shave well when I strop it on a pasted strop after the finishing hone.
The C135 steel is quite hard. That makes it harder to hone, but it also means it last longer before refreshing is required, so the overall effort is similar.
For the longest time I wanted and wanted a TI but after get several in to hone the edges are hit and miss, very few factory edges are good enough to shave off of especially production razors and then couple that with the wacky wonky grinds that are on them makes things interesting for honing, my best success with them was one layer of super 88 tape and set a good solid bevel then change tape and finish and it usually yields a decent edge
Synthetics :)
The C135 TI is rated to be 66RHC I have my doubts that it is that high
I don't mess with them I go straight to either Naniwa SS 1-3-5-8-10-12 or Shapton GS 1-2-4-6-8-16-30
These hones are designed to take that hard steel and tame it nice
The Chosera 1-5-10 into a finisher isn't bad either
Be careful and look for a slight frown on them from the factory, hone toward a smile to correct slowly
I now have 5 TIs, the last from AOS in Las Vegas just last month. The AOS people are as dumb as rocks. They sell a pretty product with a price tag. They knew nothing about straight razors, hones, bevel formation; didn’t even know the knot diameter of their best brush. If their website didn’t say it, they didn’t know it.
I digress. Glenn is exactly right. I used my Shapton Glass series to hone the AOS TI, up to 8k and finished on a Coticule. It is now a fine shaver, as are all my other TIs.
Keep after it. That C135 steel can produce incredible edges that last a long time.
My preference on razors that need a lot of bevel work was the Shapton Pro 320.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill31521
With slurry it's only a little slower than diamond plates & gives a less scored bevel that can be cleaned up quicker on something like a Chocera 1k.
Mine has a bit of a twist and uneven bevel. I have worked around the twist. And don’t mind the uneven bevel.
I have tried king 1k, no name 3k, Norton washita, no name 8k, Coe gray polisher and dota creek. Recently convex soft and black translucent ark... improved edge from previous set up but still not enough for HHT 3 or higher.
My next try is film that’s all I have left.
Thanks for all the feedback
I have a couple of these c135 beasts and yea they will fool you if you don't take your time on lower grit stones to really form your edge well. If you go to an Ark too early that ark will do nothing but tickle it a little. Trans and Black Arkansas are slow to begin with and with these TI's anything short of a dead on set bevel and some mid range refinement you will be honing forever without much effect. I work them up on Naniwa synthetics but any of the progressions Glen mentioned should work similar. I personally like to finish them on any hard Jnat like Shobu or ozuko and I get a really durable yet refined edge that lasts seemingly forever. I really like this steel for its edge retention and my TI's are rather pretty So I am a fan.
:OT
Hey, long time no see. Great to see you back Razorfaust
I hone a lot of new TI’s, the hard steels are not that hard, but they can be chippy. If you can get a nice 1k edge you are half-way, there. If there is warp or twist, then more technique comes into play. Chances are the bevel was not fully set or it is chipping.
Here sharpie ink is your friend, also experiment with tape to find a nice bevel width, I like one layer of electrical and one of Kapton for strength. Ink will tell you quickly if you are honing the whole bevel to the edge. Hone on one half of the stone and that the heel comes off the stone halfway across the stone, to hone the middle and toe.
For hard steels I use a Norton or King 1k, but the stone you use does not matter that much, any 1k will work. If the edge is chippy, removing a bit of it and getting to more solid steel really speeds up the honing and delivers a solid edge.
Set the bevel as normal, then lightly joint the edge on the corner of the stone, feel for chips as you drag the edge on the stone slowly. If you feel large chips, do another lite stroke. Now look at the bevel and edge if you see any remains of a chip, mark the edge and belly of the blade with a sharpie so you can keep an eye on it and ensure it gets fully honed out, it may be a weak spot that can chip later in the progression.
Ink and hone to re-set the bevel again, it should only take about 20-30 laps. Once you fully set the bevel, lightly joint again and go to you next stone, 3-5K, do circles to remove the 1k stria and use a rolling X to set a new stria pattern.
Remove each stone’s stria with the next stone, take it to at least an 8k before going to a natural. With arks I find it best to finish one side of the finish Ark, Black or Translucent, with 600 wet and dry and burnish the other side. From the 8k go to the 600 side and finish on the burnished side with a couple drops of Smith’s or Ballistol on a wet stone. Stropping on linen between stones also helps remove flashing/burrs for a cleaner edge.
With hard steels, Jnats, Arks and Lapping film seems to give the best edges for me. If you get micro chipping, back up a stone, joint and reset the bevel. If you get a lot or large chips, joint and re-set on the 1k.
I honed a new Carbon Steel, Dovo yesterday that I had to reset the bevel 3 times before it would stop micro chipping. The hole thing only took a few minutes, when you know what to look for.
When I used to hone alot I used to use a 6 micron (4k equivalent ) DMT for some of these. Cuts faster than a chosera 1k believe it or not. I did a few Japanese westerns that I had a very hard time getting swarf on a 600 chosera. That was and is my tool of choice for the hard steels. It's also a heck of a knife finisher too.
There's no doubt about the speed of diamonds but if you use a 4k equivalent DMT I wouldn't use an 8k stone to follow as those 4k scratches will be about 1k deep. That is where I found the initial speed of diamonds had a speed bump. I know some of us use diamond plates for the heavy lifting on razors but my mileage varied :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Bill31521
For those open to trying it, the Ha no Kuromaku Shapton 320 is chock full of SiC & whilst a bit slower than a diamond plate leaves a much gentler & very even scratch pattern. Use with a generous slurry.
Good observation which goes along with the law of diminishing returns. Diamonds cut well, too well and as fast as they are will cause problems getting those scratches out not to mention every deep stria has the potential of becoming a chip. In the end you may be adding more work to the honing project by taking the apparent fast route. This of course is just how I feel about anything too aggressive being done to hone my razors. I get it that others wont feel the same about their own. I have reached a point where I don't hone all that often anymore because of number of sharp razors available and the fact that they last a real long time between honings means I never am in any kind of a rush when I do it. I have long since dropped the idea of honing for honing sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
The diamond is to even it up. I typically join the edge and then start over on the 1k chosera. The plate doesn't leave heavy scratches which you would find with lower grit plates.
Certainly that 6 micron plate is much finer than the coarse DMT. It's the only DMT I never owned so I'll take your word for it. I'd like something like that for my KME but been using films for higher grits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill31521
Revisited
Spent more time mid range 3 ,5 and 8k coti then finished with trans ark.
It is much better but still room for improvement. Still no HHT 4. And was a bit tuggy at denser growth. Is this blade capable of HHT 4 or 5?
Show side has a much smaller bevel, spent more time on this side.
I’m thinking more refinement at 8k ......then work up
Probably what Euclid said.
Setting a nice bevel with no chips.
Making sure you are honing to the edge. Make sure there is no light reflecting off the Apex.
Sounds like the geometry could be an issue from what you say.
Why not send it to pro and let them struggle with it :)
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
In my mind, here’s the real question : how does it shave?Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
Surprisingly shaves well. I’m just not getting the HHT indicators. A bit tuggy at denser growth areas. Other wise decent, not spectacular shave, It has been to a pro and I wasn’t that happy with results I am actually more pleased with my hone job. There are some geometry problems, but not enough to quit this razor. tiny bevel on show side and a wavy bevel. Along with slight twist that I know how to work around. Bevel is well set, via magnification and sharpie and feel. I did spend more time on on show side/ tiny bevel, it’s one of the heavier thicker razors I own and .....The edge just feels a bit thick... I’ll try again today or tomorrow ...
All three of the TI’s I had, I still have one, have the same type of bevels. If the whole edge feels equally keen, maybe try a couple of laps with a pasted strop. Mine responds really well to the pasted strop, I do about six laps, steps up the edge a little from a naniwa 12k and doesn’t blow out the edge (I.e. too sharp, and uncomfortable).
If you're really sure about the bevel, the problem may lie at mid or finishing stage. If the bevel set was a challenge, subsequent stages may be also.Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
Start again from top down & remember finishing should usually require very little work if earlier work is optimal.
Maybe it would be an idea to try establishing a secondary bevel, by adding a layer of electrical tape for the finishing stage.
Just a thought, based on what I've heard about TI's c135: hard steel, factory honing not necessarily flat honing i.e. honed at a lower angle than what the spine suggests - this was a few years back though, mind.
Regards,
Pieter
If all razors shaved wonderfully after a good honing, then we wouldn't have favourite shavers.
I think Pieter's suggestion could definitely bring up your sharpness a few notches. You should also definitely consider a pasted strop.
If you really want to know whether the razor is capable of being a better shaver that will meet your expectations, send it out to a pro. Perhaps you have squeezed all the sharpness you can get out of it and a pro honing won't add much improvement to the quality of the shave.
I personally never liked how modern TI razors shave. I find razors made of very hard steel too crisp and tuggy compared to softer steels. Many I have seen have wide and uneven bevels and I am not fond of the grind. The wider the bevel, the harder it is to get it very sharp without a few hacks.
I've had the exact opposite experience. Might be that dementia runs in my family but I can't remember a modern T.I. that didn't shave exceptionally well :) Grinds have indeed been pretty poor but the more recent ones haven't been too bad. Talking up to 2018 . Haven't been honing this year so can't comment on those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgister
For me it's always been getting a proper bevel on them that was the hard part then tweaking if needed after the shave test.
Soft vs hard steels for razors would make an interesting thread on it's own, as would discussing the stones we all use for both types. I've always gravitated towards harder steels & I think over the decades my stone collection has been tailored that way.