Mikawa Shiro Nagura progression on a suita.

Attachment 310529

My recent purchase of a Mizukihara Tenjyo Suita Jnat has created a dilemma.

This stone was very recently added to my Jnat collection as a mid-level pre-finisher to accompany a Shobudani awesado. It has taken me several days to somewhat figure it out and I have in return managed to get a few very nice, smooth shaving edges straight from this stone. But, I am struggling to figure out just where it might fit into a progression.

Last night I decided to experiment. I killed an edge and set the bevel on 1K synthetic. Then 4K synthetic and on to the Suita. Diamond plate slurry was produced and worked while diluting until the razor started to stick to the stone. I stropped the hell out of it (it is coticule like in this way). To my standards it was a solid HHT2. Then on to the Shobu with Botan, tenjyo, Meijiro and koma. A nice crisp nakayama asagi tomo nagura diluted to straight water. Finished and shaveable.

This took me 2 hours. I don't mind since I do enjoy the process but I am wondering if maybe I took a step backwards with the Botan and or Tenjyo. To my thinking there are probably two ways to come to a solution. Look at each progressed edge with a loupe or test shave each edge.

Please share your experiences with your Suita Jnats and how they fit into "your" progressions.

My other thought is in regard to using nagura progressions on the Suita. I have read that some have had positive results with the Botan and even Tenjyo on Suita then using the later nagura on the awesado. There are so many possibilities!!

I would try going 1k, suita with Diamond plate slurry diluting it. Then just go straight to your finisher with your finishing tomo and see how it works out.

I shaved with a little 5/8 Solingen last night that came right off of this stone with the diluted diamond plate slurry method. The edge was unlike anything I have ever used before. It was sort of coticule like in that it seemed I would have had to try to cut myself. The keenness was slightly less than what I would prefer but the comfort level was superb. Zero irritation. After that result, I believe it would be feasible to jump right to the finisher without the nagura progressions.

I will give it a shot.

If you have any flax linen (clean not pasted) you can give it a bump and try that. I agree with you on skipping the naguras.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

If you have any flax linen (clean not pasted) you can give it a bump and try that. I agree with you on skipping the naguras.

---

Interesting that you mentioned the linen.

I have been honing for about 6 years now. Started with a set of Norton synthetics and then got into Coticules for a time. I always used the linen before leather and always had favorable results. When I started honing on Jnats things changed. I would get a great HHt3 or 4 edge from my Shobu and completely lose it after stropping. I couldn't figure out why. Upon talking to the vendor I purchased the stone from, he mentioned that he had experienced similar results from stropping on linen before the leather.

Now, I go straight to leather and no longer lose my Jnat edge. I know... sounds like B.S. but it makes a huge difference.

Yup, headed in the right diredtion, Botan, Teniyo after 1/4k & diamond slurry going backwards.

Simplify, Is it the stone, strop, razor or technique? With any stone, particularly a natural stone, you have to learn the stone’s potential, with a particular razor.

Check the linen, is it clean? Magnification or stropping on a polished bevel will quickly tell you.

Second, not all linen is alike and with linen, technique is important. I suspect folks use too much pressure and can slightly roll the edge. Leather is stiffer and can straighten an edge, increasing performance. A lot also depends on the razor steel and the progression, how thin is the edge?

I like using linen to clean the edge, between stones or progression. It will straighten the fin or remove any hanging flashing, (which can affect HHT). Your finish stone will bring back any lost keenness in a few laps. Leather can do the same, but you risk imbedding loose flashing into the leather. Part of the goal of linen is to keep you leather cleaner.

I believe contaminate strops contribute to a lot of issues folks have, based on the condition of bevels and edges I see. Most strops have never been cleaned, a lifetime of air born dust and god know what else. Would you never wash your car, and just wipe it down with your hand occasionally and expect a pristine shiny finish?

Test your stone, honing on diamond slurry and comparing the bevels and edges without the interference of nagura grits, (natural stone nagura are natural and not alike, even graded nagura). Do this test with different razors of varying hardness, (An often-overlooked issue is the hardness of the razor steel) and learn the potential of the stone with that razor, it may perform very differently with a harder/softer razor.

A Suita, Koma or your Asagi tomo, may squeak out the max from the stone. Don’t put too much stock in HHT, shave it.

Good flax linen should give that edge some more zip. If it doesn't I would look for another one then. Imo it's that worth using. As far as mikawa naguras go? I find them to be a waste of time. I messed with them for more than a few years. They gave me nothing but a longer hone. If I got.something out of it I would reconsider. Jmo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yup, headed in the right diredtion, Botan, Teniyo after 1/4k & diamond slurry going backwards.

Simplify, Is it the stone, strop, razor or technique? With any stone, particularly a natural stone, you have to learn the stone’s potential, with a particular razor.

Check the linen, is it clean? Magnification or stropping on a polished bevel will quickly tell you.

Second, not all linen is alike and with linen, technique is important. I suspect folks use too much pressure and can slightly roll the edge. Leather is stiffer and can straighten an edge, increasing performance. A lot also depends on the razor steel and the progression, how thin is the edge?

I like using linen to clean the edge, between stones or progression. It will straighten the fin or remove any hanging flashing, (which can affect HHT). Your finish stone will bring back any lost keenness in a few laps. Leather can do the same, but you risk imbedding loose flashing into the leather. Part of the goal of linen is to keep you leather cleaner.

I believe contaminate strops contribute to a lot of issues folks have, based on the condition of bevels and edges I see. Most strops have never been cleaned, a lifetime of air born dust and god know what else. Would you never wash your car, and just wipe it down with your hand occasionally and expect a pristine shiny finish?

Test your stone, honing on diamond slurry and comparing the bevels and edges without the interference of nagura grits, (natural stone nagura are natural and not alike, even graded nagura). Do this test with different razors of varying hardness, (An often-overlooked issue is the hardness of the razor steel) and learn the potential of the stone with that razor, it may perform very differently with a harder/softer razor.

A Suita, Koma or your Asagi tomo, may squeak out the max from the stone. Don’t put too much stock in HHT, shave it.

---

That's the thing. The long winded progression, while giving excellent results, leaves far too much to interpret. I will simplify the process as a means of better understanding what is really doing what. After last night's results I believe the Mizukihara has done everything the naguras did after the fact. Somewhat redundant in hindsight. This is how we learn right?

Since your playing around. Take the slurry off your suita and dump it on your finisher and see what it gets you. I do that all the time. It goes right to polish.

I would say it comes down to what the stone is capable of. I have suita stones that will wipe 1k scratches and get the edge ready for a finisher with koma/tomo and other suitas that actually can't do that. So on those mid range suitas going back to botan is an overkill. On the other hand I have 1 very very hard suita that you can do the whole mikawa/tomo progression on and get a nice shave but that's sort of an unusual rock. The whole way it behaves during lapping etc, it really acts like a hard grey rock and not a suita.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alex1921

I would say it comes down to what the stone is capable of. I have suita stones that will wipe 1k scratches and get the edge ready for a finisher with koma/tomo and other suitas that actually can't do that. So on those mid range suitas going back to botan is an overkill. On the other hand I have 1 very very hard suita that you can do the whole mikawa/tomo progression on and get a nice shave but that's sort of an unusual rock. The whole way it behaves during lapping etc, it really acts like a hard grey rock and not a suita.

---

Yes, and I am enjoying the process of finding that out. I believe this stone is capable of much more than I have asked of it so far. Time will tell.

“Time will tell.”

Yup, you got to learn your rock and what it is capable of. A year from now that rock, will have “improved” considerably.

Back in the day, pre-quality synthetic stones, not that long ago you needed the Nagura progression. Now with a 1k you can set a bevel, then jump straight to an 8k, then to a Jnat with diamond slurry, and finish on a tomo, or a harder finish stone, my usual progression.

Nothing wrong with the full Nagura progression, if that is your thing, and I totally get that, if it is.

Check out some of Alex Gilmore’s videos on TheJapanStone.com on YouTube. He often goes from 1k, King, to Jnat with diamond slurry, finishing with the same or refreshed slurry.

You can learn a lot about testing a stone, watching his videos. Keep in mind, those hands have handled a lot of rock and very sharp tools for a long time.

Great thread. Looking forward to your findings. I will say i enjoy using a Koma and Tomo but thats lately is as far as i go with the Naguras. After 8k i find with those two Nagura i can get to a nice finished edge without spending as much time on the stones. Alex and Marty will help you to learn a lot. They helped me. Watching Alex's vids you will say to yourself "how can it possibly be done". BTW, thanks Alex for making your vids!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

Please share your experiences with your Suita Jnats and how they fit into "your" progressions.

---

It's very hard to generalise about stones that can be so individual.

With razors I would place most Suita as a pre polisher eg to clean up work from synthetics providing I haven't done a full synth progression to Gok 20 k, then a Suita may have no place.

Suita generally can take over from 1k up to 12k.

Can you shave off a Suita ? It depends on the stone & the steel & the honer . Are there stones that will improve that edge ? Almost always.

It helps to remember that there are usually two suita formations, the upper, or tenjou suita, and the lower suita which is the usual whiter stones with layers. The upper level stones are considered to be more metal polishers than cutters, though obvious exceptions exist.

I’d suggest after the thin slurry, washing the stone and razor of any slurry and adding 10-30 clear water strokes at light polishing pressure and trying that edge.

Kudos to Marty for recommending clean leather. The razor is supposed to be stropped on leather, not oil, wax, skin oil with salt in it, household dust that stuck to the oil, wax, and salt, etc. Give clean leather a chance.

Here’s a nice bench size tenjou from Alex Gilmore that I picked up a few years back, it had Narutaki stamps on it when new, and it will hone up a razor well finishing on clear water. It isn’t quite the best of class as a final razor finisher, but it can certainly make a smooth comfortable edge, is a great prefinisher and a killer knife hone.

Well I have been on the Mizukihara twice since my last post and have a much better understanding of it's capabilities. Two entirely different approaches have been attempted, each ending with a shaveable razor.

1) 1k bevel set on my test razor. Botan, Tenjyou, Meijiro progression. Then straight water on the Mizukihara. The shave was as usual. Slightly lacking in keenness and very, very smooth. I was able to do three passes and get a very clean and irritation free shave.

2) 1Kbevel set on the same razor. A heavy diamond plate slurry was created and worked until black then slowly diluted until straight water. This stone seems fairly fast with it's own slurry. The resulting shave was nearly identical to the first.

So what have I learned as a result?
The Nagura progression on this stone is unnecessary, not pointless. The same results were reached in about half the time with the stone and it's own slurry and the shave from this stone is exceptionally smooth but to my taste, lacking in keenness.

After the last honing session and shave, the test razor was taken to the Shobudani with a light shobu slurry slowly diluted to a magnificently keen and smooth edge. I believe that the Mizukihara is a fast, hard pre-finisher that leaves off where the shobu starts. It is exactly what I was told it would be but I had to find out for myself. Attachment 310850