Thread: 1k 4k 8k

If you are using a good progression of hones, I would then question the basics. Are you sure that you have the correct angle? Not all razors are made with the same width to thickness ratio. If the bevel angle is wrong, then you will never get it right. I've posted this before, but it is worth repeating.

Use a set of calipers and measure the width of the blade from the cutting edge to the place where the spine will rest on the hone. Write that number down. Now divide it by 4 and write that number down. Now divide the measurement by three and write that number down. As an example. If the blade measures 0.75" wide, the two calculated numbers would be 0.1875 and 0.25 inches. This is the range that the thickness of the spine needs to measure with the tape. If the spine is more or less than that range (0.1875" - 0.25") then your bevel angle will not be correct. Adjust the layers of tape to get the spine measurement in that range (use calipers to take the measurement of the spine with tape).

Other than that, my next thought would be that you may need to get the "feel" of the hone. You don't want to press down on the hones with the blade, but at the same time you need to keep the blade flat. I rest two fingers on the blade simply to keep the blade sitting correctly on the hone. If the blade is "rocking" (edge to spine) then you are not getting a consistent angle. Each razor has a slightly different feel. If it is truly strait or if it has a smile, will determine how to move your wrist in order to keep the blade "flat" on the hone. This is the practice part of honing.

To me it is a check list.
* Make sure the razor is honeable. Some poor quality razors simply will never get sharp. Also, some expensive razors made with "high end, fancy" steels will be darn near impossible to sharpen as well.
* Get the angle correct
* Make sure the bevel is even and consistent with a 1k
* Have a good progression of good hones
* Don't move on to the next grit until all the scratches from the previous grit are removed.

If you get those correct and it still is not working, then all that I can think of that you may be missing is the feel of the blade on the hone.

There are many many paths to the bevel set. You cannot follow all of them at the same time. I used a single presenter until I go repeatable results. Also it helped me understand better what the other presenters were saying. There are good pictures in the link I posted earlier in the thread, of what you should be seeing in your loupe.

"Other than that, my next thought would be that you may need to get the "feel" of the hone."
This to me is even more important than the visual aspect. Certainly circles are a good way to get started. But in addition to the visuals through a loupe, you should start to feel, as you remove steel all along the edge (hopefully), a gradual smoothing from rough to getting smoother and smoother. I can't emphasize enough how crucial it is that you "listen" to subtle changes your fingers and hands should be feeling as you start to lighten up once those bevel planes smooth out and come together.

On water stones, watching "the wave" is also key. You should at first be pushing the wave all along the edge-if you're not, your edge is not on the stone. I find that a sort of parabolic "windshield wiper" stroke is helpful if you're having trouble getting the whole edge on the stone. Then as you get to true bevel set, you will start undercutting that water-that is what you want. Then there are numerous tests of a truly set bevel, but you should never be pushing a razor's edge into skin or have to force it in any way to cut (sounds dangerous to me).

And if no one has already said it, you need to have a true pro-honed edge with you at all times as you're learning what it's supposed to feel like. This is both humbling and revealing, but it gives you something to shoot for (and maybe even beat at some point!).

Finally, even experienced honers can have trouble with a problem blade that we have to put down, think a bit on it, and come back later with a different approach. If one razor won't hone up for you, put it down and try a different, easier one (like a straight blade Solingen or similar). Then come at the hard one with more skills from the easier one. There are many roads to sharp!

Originally Posted by STF

It occurs to me that if the way to get the pen off was circles and nothing else seemed to do the trick, anything but those circles won't hone the blade all the way along at any grit, am I missing something?

This doesn't make any sense to me. If the bevel is in contact with the hone at the same light pressure, the direction of motion of the razor on the hone shouldn't matter with regard to removing the sharpie marking. Circles are a bit faster at a given pressure in removing steel, but that's a different topic.

On water stones, watching "the wave" is also key.

That is very true. I forgot to even mention that, but it is one reason I like the Norton. The water pattern gives a good visible feedback. This is more of the "art" of honing verses the "science" of honing. The science of honing would be to use the man made hones that are consistent and proven, along with tools like calipers and loupes. Find the proven tools and techniques and repeat it every time. I used to work in manufacturing facilities and that was one of my jobs. Find the best operators who make a good product by "feel" and standardize what they do into repeatable steps that everyone could follow.

The art of honing would be to use a single natural stone and do it all with that single stone based on feel, experience and skill. My approach to honing (and life in general I guess) is to combine a little of both art and science where they make sense. I don't think that you can totally eliminate the art side of it though. Each blade is different, especially if dealing with vintage used razors, and they require judgement calls based on skill and experience. Besides, if it was as easy as ordering hones X,Y and Z from Amazon to get the perfect edge every time, it would take all the fun out of it. Life without art is boring.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

This doesn't make any sense to me. If the bevel is in contact with the hone at the same light pressure, the direction of motion of the razor on the hone shouldn't matter with regard to removing the sharpie marking. Circles are a bit faster at a given pressure in removing steel, but that's a different topic.

Agreed. It makes me think that the circular motion is causing the blade to rock back and forth and not stay flat on the hone. Giving the false impression of a "complete" hone.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

This doesn't make any sense to me. If the bevel is in contact with the hone at the same light pressure, the direction of motion of the razor on the hone shouldn't matter with regard to removing the sharpie marking. Circles are a bit faster at a given pressure in removing steel, but that's a different topic.

I understand what you're saying and can't really agreee or disagree because I don't have the practical experience yet but it does make sense to me on the face of it. I think the point was that the whole bevel wasn't touching the stone, I am watching a youtube video by Joseph, Job15 - right now coincidentally and I can see quite clearly how when the edge is marked with a sharpie and his particular strokes don't remove the pen from the whole length of the blade, by simply changing to a different stroke (x stroke in this example) the pen was removed completely, it seems that different basic strokes are sometimes enough to allow the whole blade to touch the stone.

That looks much easier than some other techniques I have seen and Job15 has a really good teaching style, if I still lived in the smoke instead of moving to Canada I might have asked him for private tuition I reckon.

Course, I might be completely misunderstanding, but I'm the only one to blame for that. Bevel setting seems to be a huge subject and seems it can get very complicated.

I am a martial artist as I know a couple of others here are. When I started, a particular technique or a kata was explained and the meanings of the techniques where made clear to me. As I moved up through the grades those same tecniques where shown to have much more advanced meanings that I could not have understood earlier.

I think that honing is very similar in as much as I my undrstanding of why I am learning a certain way as someone new at it will be worlds away from the understanding of the advanced grade honers.

You’re rocking the razor like a rolling x stroke when you’re doing circles it sounds like.

One thing I really admire about you Steve is that you are probably the most enthusiastic person that I know about this particular subject. You're certainly all in and in the end that will pay off for you but it may be that you're enthusiasm is working against you somewhat. As Rezdog said it's probably best to listen to one teacher so you don't cloud your mind with too many things as far as videos go at least. I know there's been a lot of advice given in this thread and I think you're probably better at it than you think but a thing that really worked for me was slowing down my stroke to the point, as I said before, that it is almost in slow motion. Think of it like tai chi: almost ridiculously deliberate. What may be happening is that you're doing fine and then one bad stroke spoils all the good work. I personally struggled with that...still do sometimes. Maybe we all do. It occurrs to me that maybe the trick is KNOWING when you made a mis-stroke and going back to correct it. Hopefully it's not on a finisher. It has happened to me and I had to start over almost from scratch. That really bites the big one so especially past 4k I stroke like a sloth.
In fairness I don't have $100,000 in stones like some people here probably do but I think Norton combo stones are unfairly disregarded. They may not be a sexy stone but I have found that if I keep mine clean, keep them flat and chamfered and sufficiently soaked and subsequently dried they work just fine. One thing I have noticed is that you have to use the flattening stone properly or it will over lap the hone so that it is either too rough or has rough patches.

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

you are probably the most enthusiastic person that I know about this particular subject. You're certainly all in and in the end that will pay off for you but it may be that you're enthusiasm is working against you somewhat. As Rezdog said it's probably best to listen to one teacher so you don't cloud your mind with too many things as far as videos go at least. I know there's been a lot of advice given in this thread and I think you're probably better at it than you think but a thing that really worked for me was slowing down my stroke to the point, as I said before, that it is almost in slow motion.

Hi Paul. very kind words, I'm not sure I deserve them but I will admit that if I decide to get involved with something, whether it's straight shaving or learning to hone I only have two speeds, Stop or completely obsessed.

I want to thank you again for the 4 razors you sent me a few months ago to practice honing on. You told me that it didn't matter if I stuffed them because they were just practice razors and nothing special.

I have to disagree respectfully. I love my razors, including those and if I can't shave with them I can at least polish them and admire them.

Actually, I have been doing my math and the way I see it, with decent stropping a razor should shave well for at least 25-30 shaves, probably more but my point is. I have 14 razors in my rotation and shave everyday so I use each razor every two weeks, twice a month.

That means I am using each razor about 24 times a year so I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that I could refresh my razors annually, in October in my case.

The reason I went through the math is that I only have what I would consider shave ready razors in my rotation. Now you sent me 4 practice razors Paul. I had completely fortgotten that 2 of them are shave ready and in my rotation so I did successfully set those bevels and hone them, to my satisfaction at least.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that they are Outback sharp but I do get bbs on every razor in my rotation including those two.

The two razors I am struggling with are razors you sent and the no name round point you did warn me about being a bitch. The other is a slight smile.

I'm getting a great shave of a $5 chinese razor I bought to play with and bevel set/hone and no one could have been more suprised than I at how well it turned out so I am obviously doing something right.

Conventional wisdom and some of the guys here that I really respect have advised me to put the hard ones away for now and try again when I have more experience, that is great advice and will certainly save a lot of heartache.

Unfortunately everytime i see those two razors they laugh at me so I'm gonna hone them even if i have to grind them down until I can make them into screwdrivers.