Saw this video posted on another shave forum. I thought it interesting enough to post it here as it departs from what most of us have learned to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBXW...ature=youtu.be
Bob
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Saw this video posted on another shave forum. I thought it interesting enough to post it here as it departs from what most of us have learned to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBXW...ature=youtu.be
Bob
So, consider the source.
Why not just strop on paste and get the same effect? A sheet or two of copy paper under film does the same, provides a bit of give to convex the edge.
Yes, nano grit paste, CBN or Diamond can yield a great shaving edge, but few razors can handle that edge and microchips after a few stropping’s.
Consider the source.
So if im understanding this, we need to use a convex hone and not flat? In my mind if you could make a proper bevel this way the edge would be thinner which also wod make it weaker and not last as long. We are talking microns here so Im not sure it would make a difference.
Enteresting but I dont think Im going to change the shape of my hones.
I did not post this to promote the technique in the vid but to stimulate conversation about it knowing it would be a controversial subject.
Bob
“So if im understanding this, we need to use a convex hone and not flat? “
Not sure, a photo of a drawing of the plate he is hawking looks concave.
This is the same guy that gets sauced while making videos to promote his company. A few month ago, he was promoting the opposite.
Maybe he was a bit Scotch challenged, read the comments under the video. Issues?
(Attachment 328601
The plate is for producing or maintaining the convex honeQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Sorry, I didn't watch it all - I gave up at the first diagram when I couldn't see what "A" was.
Blade geometry isn't rocket science. Neither is removing metal from an edge to meet in a finer and finer point from both sides.
As far as convex and concave "grinding surfaces" go, what matters is the radius of the curvature - if you had a large enough wheel, for example, a 5/8 razor wouldn't know it was sitting on a curved surface at all. Similarly for a dished stone - if the radius of the dishing is such that you are talking 1 micron lower in the middle of the stone to the ends, is that going to matter? Can anyone guarantee their stones are completely flat? To what tolerance?
Anyway, I applaude the effort but IME these kinds of videos, while couched in terms of generating discussion, are usually being made by someone with something to sell. Apologies to this guy if I am wrong, I have no idea who he is or what he does.
James.
Maybe, possibly, factories use / used convex hones and not flat stones because it saves on lapping. Honing hundreds of razors would need untold amounts of time just for lapping..
Are razors really honed by hand in the factory or are the honed on some automated spinning wheel? I guess I just imagine the modern razor factory have conveyor belts of blanks cruising along between finer and finer wheels before coming out honed and stropped on the other end before some robot peens scales on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOB15
I think its Dovo have the spinning wheel and then onto the large Coticule.. TSS has a video showing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by planeden
I don't have the experience that some possess here so I couldn't say either way. But I can say that what I have learned here on this site and from some very highly skilled individuals, have led me to to produce incredible edges that work on my face consistently.
We will always have differences of how to hone. I think everyone understands that if it works for your face, then you have accomplished your mission. That's really all that matters.
The “Dovo” convex hone has been discussed for years, and this same vendor was reproducing them in Coticule and Ark stones a while back. I know a few guys here purchased the stones, I think one was for sale on the BST a while ago, no raving reviews yet.
Now he is selling a plate to grind your own, which would be difficult with a hard Ark and sandpaper. Probably factories use these stone to hone warped razors.
If “Old Master Honers” have been honing like this for years, where are the stones and magic edges they produce. If the results were so fantastic, folks would prize them like fine Jnats and large smooth Hard Arks.
This guy is a Dovo vendor, I’ve not seen a magic edge come out of the Dovo factory lately, and I hone a fair amount of new Dovos.
Just learn the Rolling X, no magic stone needed.
Yup, I'll agree with the video most of the new dovos I ever honed certainly weren't sharp... & plenty have had frowns out of the box too.
Microbevels & convex bevels are just a compensation for poor steel or HT.
I would think it to be a quite harsh edge, being your trying to undercut a already, finned edge.
No thanks.....plain nonsense.
Though it could be easily done with a wheel, to say, SE & DE blades, but they don't, I believe their micro beveled. But I don't know for sure, I only shave with straights.
I have an effective technique that produces edge that I like. That’s all that truly matters to me.
If all you want is an edge that will shave, there are a lot of ways to get that, all equally valid. If you have a very particular result in mind, that does narrow the field, and specialized techniques are okay, too. I am very set in my ways and in my expectations, so I don't do much experimenting these days, apart from very small incremental optimizations or attempts at optimization. Sometimes guys get far off the beaten path and leave many of us scratching our heads asking why they do it that way, but sometimes we forget that most of us have little idiosyncracies that we believe in. It's all good. The oddballs can always return to the path well traveled later if they get disillusioned.
Ahhhh my buddy Jared
He was all over TSD with this stuff actually convinced some guys to buy his hones
He also tells people NOT to believe their lying eyes about the Spinning Platens in the Dovo vid
Pretty simple for me, and obviously Marty too, when somebody claims that we should hone like the "Solingen Masters at Dovo on a convex hone" I can't stop laughing because we see the edges that they produce, that we get paid to fix
No Thanks
ps: No reflection on you Bob, it is what we do here, look at other options all the time
What JohnToad said: We will always have differences of how to hone. I think everyone understands that if it works for your face, then you have accomplished your mission. That's really all that matters.
I'm not watching that video cuz I just can't lol, but I'm one of the contrarians who actually bought one of Jarrod's 6"x2" convex black trans arks to play with a couple of years ago. They were ridiculously low-priced considering the amount of work that must go into making them, and I was just intrigued by the concept.
I've never been much concerned about honing controversies and have zero interest in arguing with anyone over how they hone their razors. Other than a few satisfied ebay customers and local converts, I mostly just hone for myself. I get bored easily once I feel I have nailed a hone, and have slowly learned to experiment over the years with different techniques, trusting my intuition more and more as I gain experience.
Long story short-I kept it for a few months, got some great edges off of it with less effort than a dead-flat ark as it was advertised to do (though no better than my flat arks), and sold it to SonnytheHooligan for what I paid for it when I became infatuated with the next stone and needed to fund it:p (which I've also since sold). Honestly, I'd like to buy it back from him just to play with it some more-It was great for smilin' Sheffields. That's my 2 cents.
Exactly why I posted it. Had not seen this mention before on SRP for discussion. I did not see it on TSD so he must be making the rounds of the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Bob
I guess we are "flat-honers". Just don't think I could ever come at using a dished stone, even out of curiosity. Though I have to say, I have an old DE blade hone/stropping "stone" that is deliberately dished so there was clearly a commercial use-case back in the day in that context.
James.
I have looked at this casually several times. And my.brain tells me there is no benefit nor a need for a "better mouse trap".
Looks like Jarrod has become upset with all us "Haters"
Honestly I haven't watched his new vid I have no need to,,, I understand Geometry
I have shaved with a couple of Jarrod's edges, I believe from before he started using the convex stones. His edges weren't bad at all. I won't say as good as mine, but probably about as good as mine were 8 or 10 years ago. Now he is using convex stones? I can't imagine that he would stick with a new method that gives a lesser edge than what he was making all along. So I will assume that his results are as good or better than a typical edge off a flat hone.
However, for myself, I have spent too much time flattening my stones, to unflatten them on purpose. Not a hater, but I'm not gonna switch, either.
The first and only Jnat I ever bought was convexed both longways and crossways. I didn't realize it at the time that this might have been done on purpose, so I spent a lot of time lapping it flat, and I never tried it the way I got it. No biggie, since I decided I wasn't getting satisfactory edges with the Jnat, anyway. If I had known better, I might have tried a few edges with it convexed. It just seemed "wrong" to me so I made it dead flat.
Looks like Jarrod has become upset with all us "Haters"
Who is Jarrod?
Hehehe I hear ya Marty I didn't realize who he was until he started including my name in his vidsQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
He owns Superior Shave he is an unapologetic Dovo fan but then again he also sells them
He has now included your S/N and Steve56 in his vid title also because of this thread, it also helps him get hits on YouTube :D
It has always been a thing to create strife to try and sell an idea along these groups, by attacking the known it draws attention to your idea
This has gone on for many years on all the forums I could name all the ideas that have come and gone over the years by attacking the traditional, but why they are all pretty much gone :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors
You are greatly simplifying his outrageous claims and that is the problem,,, so is he now...
See if he just said "Hey I am getting great edges and it is easier for me to get them this way give it a try" my reaction would be "Good, more power to ya"
But that is NEVER what people do, they first must give a BS reason that this works WAY better than the traditional systems, near every time it is based on sketchy science or geometry... When you tell them "No that isn't actually true", then you are all of a sudden a hater and that creates "Sides" and the strife that helps promote their bad science and most often a product..
Soon they begin to subtly change their "New" system back towards the traditional and we don't much hear about the "WonderSystem" any longer
He has already backed off on the "Science" that he claimed, mostly because of Steve and I calling it BS now it is more about it being easier to hone around Warped edges.. This appeals more to the new guys that have problems honing around razors that have issues.. That is smart because they are they ones more likely to buy into it and subsequently promote it.
Many of them don't even realize that it isn't the "New" system that is improving their honing it is the fact they are honing more and paying more attention to doing it right (That might be good)
I try to keep an open mind and maybe even try one of his stones one day but when the back and forth takes a bizarre turn and devolves into personal attacks, I will pass.
https://thesuperiorshave.com/product...T9y-_tNW9FV1hU
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1921
That is part of his Promotional Plan sadly, he realizes that the more we talk about it the more clicks he gets and it helps his business model..
I bet it would take you all of 5 minutes to round the top of a finisher and try it, I also bet it takes you less time to realize that if the sketchy science even worked that the formation of a Concave Bevel vs a Convex Bevel is not a good thing.. Myself I doubt that is even happening, so there is that
We must also realize that we actually strive toward a flat "Bevel edge" but different conditions tend us toward a Convex bevel ie Slurry, Stropping I mean we actually at one time had a few notable makers promoting the formation of a convex bevel by the use of micro-beveling
This is also used by a few of the DE makers to create their edges
Ah. Okay. I never saw any crazy claims, or else I just never paid any attention to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Obviously a convex hone would make honing a warped or frowned blade easier. The only problem is, when you hone into a defect like that, often you are just making it worse. I would rather fix it or toss it, anyway.
You are absolutely right about the paying attention part. A lot of newbies hear "it's just rubbing steel to rock until sharp, not rocket science" but they take it kind of literally and don't really think about what is really happening at the edge. You can hone too fast, but you really can't hone too slow, at least if you are honing for yourself. The brain is almost as important, actually more important, than the stone. We tell guys "just HONE it", and I have done it too, so they are like, "okay...." and they just rub rub rub and get meh results. Then we confuse them with edge pics and theories and details and spreadsheets and diagrams and recommendations and what do you know, they get better, because they think about what they are doing instead of just applying blade to magic sharpening rock and expecting it to just work because they paid half a day's wages for it.
So by extension, we could all agree to tell beginners that honing on a nicely lapped brick with Smuckers grape jelly would give them a fantastic bevel, and IT PROBABLY WOULD! LOL. At least better than they were getting with the "mindlessly rub on rock until done" approach. Someone could sell kits of pre-lapped bricks and convenient restaurant single serving packs of the special honing compound and proclaim it to be the world's best honing system, complete with complimentary DVD and instruction booklet. Someone not in on the joke would shout it down mercilessly with salvos of ridicule and scorn. Noobs feeling defeated by their King combo or Sharp Pebbles would wonder if maybe this new thing with the brick and the jelly isn't the holy grail, feared by the old guard for being so much better and easier, and try again, this time taking their time as they learn the new system... et voila. An edge that shows a bit more promise. Is that kind of in line with what you are saying?
Anyway, it is a definite fact that fully engaging the mind in honing gives superior results.
Now I got to lap some stones and set the bevel on another batch of razors. It's a pretty safe bet that I will be lapping them FLAT, like always.
I still like dealing with TSS, though. I got two Dovo Bismarcks from him at a pretty good price a few years ago. I just don't think I will be getting in on the un-flat stone thing.
<EDIT> Apologies. I just have to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-upHSP9KU
Videos and people on the internetz confuse me.
Re: Cresent City Razors.
You may have seen it, but there is a guy on YouTube called burrfection that sharpens a knife on a brick to show that it is about skill and not just equipment. He never claims it is better, nor does he try to sell you a brick, though. I enjoy his videos.
I understand what you are saying about "rubbing steel on rocks" being an oversimplification. And that it implies you don't really have to think about what you're doing. But, I think of it as a way of telling noobs that you don't have to over complicate it, either. I find it interesting when yall talk about theories and debate different techniques and science of edge shapes. But I'm not there yet. I need to stick with rubbing steel on rocks until I can get a consistent good edge before I start to figure out fancy things to improve it. It keeps me grounded and to stay within my limits.
I thought this was about convex stones, not convex edges. The idea, right or wrong however it may be, is that only a small part of the edge is in full contact with the hone at any given point in time or in the honing stroke. At least that's my take on it. Yeah if you want a convex EDGE, you are absolutely correct, but a convex stone isn't going to necessarily give a convex edge, any more than a flat stone would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
It is about a Convex hone to create a Concave Bevel or that was the original claim ... He has since backed away from that and settled more on the "Easier to Hone"
I just wish the little weasel would stop tagging me to up his hits
Oh and the Wet vs Whet post on YouTube is the funniest I have read in sometime
The audacity of the Wet Shaving world to call it Wet Shaving instead of Whet Shaving,, Oh in case you all didn't realize I guess I invented that term "Wet Shaving" yea !!!! ME
We should add it to urban dictionary and credit you.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
LOL the wet/whet!Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Okay I gotcha. Stone convex longways, not crossways. Or both, like my Awesado that I lapped flat. I was thinking convex side to side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors
If you watch the Dovo vid their stone is done lengthwise so the hump would contact the razor edge as you hone so yes the low parts are along the long edges with the high hump running the long axis
Imagine using a set of Round Crock Sticks to only contact a small portion of the bevel at a time (Also recommended at one time)
OOH I used to love me some Kelly LaBrock back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors
It was originally claimed that a convex stone would hone a thinner bevel, a theoretical micro hollow ground bevel. And that this method was invented by Solingen razor makers, master hone misters.
But, if you were a razor maker and wanted a more acute bevel angle, why not just grind a thinner spine? Because it does not work, if you thin a bevel too much, e.g., with paste few steels could support it, certainly not modern Dovos.
Dovo uses convex stones most probably to hone warped razors, not a ringing endorsement, as the words Dovo and “factory shave ready” should not be used in the same sentence.
Bottom line is, can you hone a warped razor on a convex stone? Yea probably.
But anyone could hone a warped razor on any stone, if you drop the heel off the stone on the concave side with a Rolling X stroke and lift the heel slightly off the stone on the convex side, on any flat stone, as has been done for hundreds of years.
So, the convex stone or stone grinder may be an expensive solution to a non- existent problem.
A similar device was developed to camber wood plane blades a few years ago, but for hundreds of years woodworkers simply added finger pressure on the corners of the blade for a few strokes and achieved the exact same results. It is how all antique furniture has been built.
